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dinesh
06-21-2004, 04:37 PM
Basava Premanand is India's leading guru-buster.

He believes that the country's biggest spiritual leader, Sri Satya Sai Baba, is a charlatan and must be exposed.

Basava Premanand has been burgled... again.

It is the third time in just one month. But he is in no doubt of the thieves' motives.

He suspects they were looking for evidence that he has collected for over 30 years against India's leading spiritual guru, Sri Satya Sai Baba.

Mr Premanand believes this evidence proves the self-proclaimed "God-man", Sai Baba, is not just a fraud, but a dangerous sexual abuser.

"Sai Baba is nothing but a mafia man, conning the people and making himself rich", he says of his bete noire.

As India's leading guru-buster, Basava Premanand is the scourge of all miracle-makers.

He is the founder of the Federation of Indian Rationalist Associations and the editor of a monthly periodical called The Indian Sceptic.

He believes that it is his duty to dispel the "curse of gullibility blighting his country in the form of myth and superstition", and replace it instead with the "gospel of pure, scientific understanding".

Since 1976, he has waged a bitter war against Sai Baba, a man who commands a following of millions both in India and abroad. His devotees believe him to be an Avatar, or incarnation of God in human form.

But to Mr Premanand, this God is anything but holy.

Rumours about Sai Baba sexually abusing young male devotees have been circulating for years.

In 1976 a former American follower,Tal Brooke, wrote a book called Avatar of the Night: The Hidden Side of Sai Baba. In it, he referred to the guru's sexual exploits.

But Brooke's allegations were dismissed out of hand by the tightly controlled Sai Baba Organisation.

Dr Michael Goldstein, chairman of the international Sai Baba organisation, admitted he had heard rumours, but told us that he did not believe them. He said: "My heart and my conscience tell me that it is not possible."

But in the last four years, and with the growth of the internet, the tide of claims against Sai Baba has become a groundswell.

Former devotees such as Alaya Rahm and Mark Roche, featured in the the BBC film Secret Swami, are coming forward with increasingly graphic stories of the guru's serious sexual exploitation.

Their own experiences bear an uncanny resemblance, yet span a time frame of almost 30 years.

Both had been subjected to Sai Baba rubbing oil on their genitals.

"He took me aside", said Alaya Rahm, "put the oil on his hands, told me to drop my pants and rubbed my genitals with the oil. I was really taken aback."

All the allegations against Sai Baba so far have been made by Westerners.

But Mr Premanand says that there are many Indians who also claim to have been abused but are too afraid to speak out.

It is no surprise that Indian victims are scared of reprisals. Sai Baba's influence among the power elite of India is impressive.

Prime ministers, presidents, judges and generals, have all come to the ashram (religious retreat) in Puttaparthi in southern India, to pay their respects.

The previous prime minister of India, Mr Atal Vajpayee, once issued a letter on his official notepaper calling the attacks on Sai Baba "wild, reckless and concocted."

Sai Baba also enjoys a close relationship with the state police. A former head of police once acted as his personal chauffeur.

None of this, however, deters Mr Premanand who has doggedly pursued Sai Baba over the years through the courts, the media and several embarrassing books and exposures.

Little wonder that his campaign has enraged some of the holy man's supporters.

To date, Basava Premanand has survived four murder attempts and bears the scars from several savage beatings.

In 1986, he was arrested by the police for marching to Puttaparthi with 500 volunteers for a well-publicised confrontation with Sai Baba.

Later that year, he took Sai Baba to court for violating the Gold Control Act by producing gold necklaces out of thin air without the permission of a Gold Control Administrator.

When his case was dismissed, Mr Premanand appealed on the grounds that spiritual power is not a defence recognised in law.

In June 1993, the peace of the ashram was shattered when a gruesome incident took place.

Four male devotees, who were close to Sai Baba, broke into their guru's private quarters late at night armed with knives.

Their motives are unclear. Some say they were going to warn their guru about corruption among the higher echelons of the ashram. Others say they were going to kidnap or even kill Sai Baba.

They were stopped by Sai Baba's personal attendants and in the violent struggle that ensued, two of the attendants were killed and two left seriously wounded.

Sai Baba managed to escape through a secret flight of stairs and raise the alarm.

Just before the police arrived, the four men escaped to Sai Baba's bedroom. It was there, the police say, they shot the intruders out of self defence.

Mr Premanand claimed a cover up and went to court.

He says: "The central government stopped the investigation, because if the investigation takes place, a lot of things will come out like economic offences and sex offences."

He was outraged that Sai Baba - one of the key witnesses to the events of that night - had not been questioned.

Over the next three years, he took his case all the way to the Supreme Court, before he was eventually defeated.

Today, this sprightly septuagenarian is as busy as ever, collecting and collating more information. Mr Premanand is preparing for another battle.

"This", he says mischievously, "is going to be the greatest fight of my life."


Thanks : BBC News Online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3813469.stm

dinesh
06-21-2004, 04:40 PM
It has been estimated that Sri Satya Sai Baba, India's biggest spiritual leader, has up to 30 million devotees around the world.

But increasing numbers of former followers are alleging he has sexually abused them or their families. This World investigates.

Swamis, otherwise known as yogis or gurus, are the holy men of India, and part of ancient tradition.

Sai Baba, 78, is based in Puttaparthi, near Bangalore in southern India. His distinctive 1960s orange robes and Afro hairstyle make him instantly recognisable.

As the country's biggest "God-man" - a human being who declares himself divine - he professes to be the reincarnation of a Hindu God-man from the 19th Century.

Sai Baba not only commands huge regular audiences at the local ashram (religious retreat) - where he performs countless "miracles" - he also boasts followers from more than 165 countries world-wide.

But as the This World team discovers as they travel from India to California, there are a number of former devotees who have turned away from his teachings, claiming he has ruined their lives.

Alaya, a former follower who claims he was sexually abused by the swami, says in the programme: "I remember him saying, if you don't do what I say, your life will be filled with pain and suffering."

In an intimate and powerful portrait, Alaya's family talks openly about how they feel they were betrayed.

Back in India, there are serious questions to be asked of politicians, who seem to have continuously ignored the problem. Indeed, some would say, the correct position for these politicians appears to be at the feet of Sai Baba.

He certainly has friends in high places, and throughout the scandal, his popularity has remained intact.

Has this "God-man" been wrongly accused or does his status mean he is immune to criticism?

Thanks : BBC News Online http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/3791921.stm

dinesh
06-21-2004, 11:36 PM
enna makkalae....oruthar kittayirunthum pechaiyae kaanom? I posted this under interesting topics to have a chat about it. What do you all think about this? Come on, out with your opinions ;)

vasan
06-21-2004, 11:49 PM
I have no personal knowledge about Sai Baba (meaning not met him in person !).

But I have seen many his devotees and his critics. Devotees swear by him - have seen him several times, were blessed by him and so on. And they could get very angry even if you hint a word against him... Many of them were also educated at the Sai Baba's engg and science college in Puttaparthi (pretty decent college!)

His critics include former Illustrated Weekly editor Pritish Nandy - and personally I agree with the critics. I have this basic mistrust of any Godman/woman who has way too much of control and money and mysticism associated with him/her. But thats my own scepticism - rather than his fault.

What I find even hard to believe is the miracles (or magic or tricks or whatever!) performed by Sai Baba. Just don't believe them - and this is from some one who would not out rightly reject divine help or providence (or even miraculous things !!). This particular kind of miracles (like producing a HMT (indian company) wrist-watch out of thin air.. !) begs more questions than calls for belief..

I don't know about the allegations of sexual assault.. I have not heard of it before (but then I am out of this particular loop for the past 10 or so years.. :P too old to keep track of whats going on everywhere.. :( )

Vasan

suryalover
06-22-2004, 12:08 AM
Yara nambarathu yara nambama irukarathume puriyale :Ksp:

anainar
06-22-2004, 12:12 AM
Me too dont have any personal knowledge about Sai Baba, never was a devotee. But I did come across many devotees and never bothered to do fact finding. I stay away from questioning their beliefs because they are friends of mine and on things which cannot be logically concluded, it does not make sense to do fact finding. I dont believe in so called miracles and God acting on humans through these kind of prophets. For that matter I used to question the very existence of God physically putting me in logger heads with many of my loved ones. I do believe in something beyond my understanding and I brand it as God.

Well, for that matter another organisation called Hare Rama Hare Krishna movement was also charged with sexual abuse of minors and underwent law suits in the US. I put the blame only on the victims for they made themselves the gullible ones. Sai Baba or Hare Krishna chief never went soliciting disciples. It is a decision taken by the individuals based on their beliefs. They should also know how to protect their integrity. There is no point crying foul later.

My word to those people accusing themselves of being mistreated, it was your deed. You cannot choose conveniently out when it does not suit you. Use the brain before getting into such a ruckus before crying foul. That is all I would say.

Cheers

dinesh
06-22-2004, 12:23 AM
The thing is Anainar, when you are facing a problem, you will be tempted to follow any path to solve it. The question is, is it ok to prey on these vulnerable people?



What I find even hard to believe is the miracles (or magic or tricks or whatever!) performed by Sai Baba. Just don't believe them - and this is from some one who would not out rightly reject divine help or providence (or even miraculous things !!).

This page makes some interesting claims http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/engels/movies.html

anainar
06-22-2004, 12:34 AM
Dinesh,

Expecting God to come and solve your problem is absolute non-sense as far as I am concerned. Though I am brought up in an environment with lot of faith in the initial days, when I started developing my own thoughts, knew that I am responsible for my destiny. Trying to follow a God-man hoping that he will solve one's problem is like running away from the problem rather than facing it. I dont look at any of these victims of god men with sympathy. They failed to use their rational thinking before choosing such a path and cannot claim to have been taken advantage of. Being vulnerable is a first step of being at fault.

I did come across some saints in my life and I did respect a few of them. More so because of their humbleness and forthrighness. In fact it was one such saint who made me aware that all these miracles are not true. He is the one who also said, one is responsible for one's own destiny. And he does not perform miracles and neither asked me to go to temple everyday or pray everyday for 2 hours. I never felt ashamed of falling on his feet apart from those of my parents, more out of respect. He never asked anyone to come to his Ashram or be with him. He will meet people in a temple and that is it.

My only answer to such so called victims is, do not be vulnerable. Use your god given gift of rational thinking. Be strong and face the problems rather than running away to God men to solve it.

Cheers

dinesh
06-22-2004, 01:05 AM
It is easier said than done Anainar, and I'm sure you know it too. I'm happy that you have found out that expectine god to solve our problems is totally farcical, but that's what most of our people are doing.

They go to the god/go to guys like this/change their names/wear rings etc. So, with such minded people existing it is very hard to prey on them. If you have seen the movie "Kadhala Kadhala" there is a top scene in it, where Kamal gives his money to the mother of a disabled child and instead of going to the hospital she goes back to the god-man and gives that money to him too. People are like that, especially when they are in a corner trying to solve a problem, they'll do anything to be rid of it.

Furthermore, there is another group of people who are there for the spiritual side of these things. It's actually these type of people who lend credibility to such operations. They will mainly consist of intellectuals, and it is through them, the poor and uneducated get their beliefs from. At one time both the PM and President of India were ardent devotees of this person and both have gone on record proclaiming their support for him, and it is not unknown that they consulted this person on governing matters. Isn't this something any rational person should be concerned with?

priyarock
06-22-2004, 01:17 AM
(this is entirely my opinion)

I think that MEN must think before going behind somebody ..when ever i see this Person so called reincarnation of GOD as he says, i dont see or feel any divine stuff in him..he is rich , living in a porsch place and having servants all about him , enough contacts in the higher most levels of our society...what else he needs.. he is living a KING`s life and making fool of others...

I personally believe that if a person believes in himself , he can attain any possible goal. No need of any swami ji (s)...

anainar
06-22-2004, 01:19 AM
Dinesh,

I have seen that movie many times. In fact it is true that people spend their hard earned money in such things. It is a pity. I dont know how those people can be made to think rationally. May be the world is meant to be like that. If every one is strong, probabaly the world will be a different place.

Not only PM and President, many many ministers were/are devotees. I am not sure whether he becomes privvy to privileged information. I doubt it very much, because these politicians go to these God men for their own survival and we ar blessed that way with them keeping the affairs of the country away from such people. They might go to them to predict their political fortune, not for anything else. Otherwise it would have come out in public. As much as there are such devotees, there are also rational thinking bureaucrats who would have blwon the whistle if such thing happened.

Cheers

sri_gan
06-22-2004, 01:25 AM
I have no knowledge about this person.. but I did some research which were against him which was like some video.. capturing as if it was his tricks.

But I have seen guys who believe in him... even families.

Personally, I don't feel anyone needs a guidance from anyone 'cause if someone concentrates on themselves little more, they know what they want and how to obtain what they need.



I personally believe that if a person believes in himself , he can attain any possible goal. No need of any swami ji (s)...


Priyarock, Welcome back to geetham. What you said is 100% true.

Bluelotus
06-22-2004, 11:11 PM
Expecting God to come and solve your problem is absolute non-sense as far as I am concerned.


My only answer to such so called victims is, do not be vulnerable. Use your god given gift of rational thinking. Be strong and face the problems rather than running away to God men to solve it.



Believing or not believing in Sai Baba is a personal choice, I suppose it is very similar to choosing to believe in God or not.

I know of many who have found a certain peace of mind by attending the weekly bhajans and yearly ashram meetings.
I think that if they feel more at peace and are able to cope with the daily stress of their lives with the ""help"" of this man then good for them.
I shan't say anything against them.

When a person faces an insurmountable problem...which neither money nor any humanly forces can help...then God is the one they shall turn to...even if all they receive is simply a appeasement rather than a solution to their problem.
It's perhaps difficult to imagine a problem so big and so very consuming when one hasn't experienced any such thing...
but they exhists ...and often more than modern medicine or technology God or the Idea of God seems a more rational thing to turns towards.
Human vagaries ...if you like.

it has been shown that humans turn towards God and faith only in times of crisis.

(I have often wondered as a believer whether ...God creates crisis to increase faith in Him/Her :oops: ....I read in "small gods" by Terry Pratchett that gods only come to exhistence when one they have believers...bit true ...I mean what happeend to the old Roman and Greek Gods...ddi they just stop exhisting with the fall of those civilisation....sorry side track)


I to have heard of the abuse and other allegations towards this man.
It is highly disturbing when ppl who hold "holy" offices such as priests and "holymen" abuse their disciple.

It isn't wholy the fault of the victims...
That, I feel is very very unfair view .
We cannot simply live for oneself
(Civic duty I feel....the idea tht it is a cut-throat world out there and that we must only look out for oneself ..is a terribly american point of view...a certain amount of left wing views is required for a beter society)
...one must look out for others...ususally those who get abused are the most vulnerable people of society..
They should be protected from predators....in fact priests and holymen were the ones created in my opinion to safeguard the vulnerable and guide society...
but they are the ones now being accused of debauchery
I am so saddened when I herar of teachers and priests and holyfolks abusing children, etc...
what an awful world we live in :cry:


Yeah about Sai Baba,
well don't belive in his miracles.
if that person can prove he is a charlatan and an abuser....then Sai Baba should be made to face Dame Justice. (and be made to pay for his crimes :evil: .)

If not him some other dude is gonna turn up in his stead anyway...

so the solution would be to increase social rsponsibility and human awareness.

Has anyone heard of a certain Sri Mataji Nirmala Devi...same thing ...
presents herself as just plain Sahaja Yoga teacher...and then when you dig deeper...she claims to be an avatar of the "athi Shakthi"

(sorry folks ..me bit confused right now...so might not make sense)

Blue.

saisrini85
08-27-2004, 12:08 AM
I am a devotee of Sai Baba. In fact, my family were devotees of Sai Baba even before my birth and I am named after Sai Baba (Sai Anand is my name!). This is shocking that such false stories are being circulated about Baba. I hope people do not believe in these. Just make a visit to his ashram to find out what the truth is. I am sure all your doubts would be expelled once you visit his Ashram in Puttaparthi!

vennai1
08-27-2004, 12:19 AM
well nice article, i m sure most of us have been hearing all this for a long time now.
still, as long as nothing is proven, nobody can taint him ! :)
if he is really charlatan he wud be busted if not sooner - later !
but as of now pretty much looks like random accusations without any proof !

the saying goes.... as long as you have simpletons you will have pimps ! :?

RaasuKutty
08-27-2004, 05:09 AM
the saying goes.... as long as you have simpletons you will have pimps !


well vic, the quesion might then be how do we have so many fishes to fall for these baits.. :think: :think:

Dinesh pointed out one reason.. lot of ppl are afraid to face(or withstand) problems and then they take whatever route thats possible for them.. self confidence shud be the answer.. nothing else that i cud think...

Note: All my views are based on the assumption that the concept of god fails if he have human representatives (my own theory of non-existance :sm12: :sm12:)

katteri
08-27-2004, 11:53 AM
I am not a follower of him, i have been to shiridi not to puttraparthi.
I am perplexed y few guys tried to kill him some 6 years before.

We have seen few videos link on that person posted earlier.

Most of the indians are exploited in the name of god.

Anbhe sivam is the principle to be followed.

coolian
10-19-2004, 12:02 AM
It's pretty saddening to see articles like these - but then again, the ignorant man has always been known to question, and this has gone on for millenia. Questioning is not a bad thing in itself, but one should strive to know the answer instead of just shooting questions and then chilling out. Don't base your beliefs on someone elses'.

venkie
10-21-2004, 03:25 AM
என்னவாக இருந்தாலும், சாய் பாபா செய்யும் சமூக தொண்டுகளை பாராட்டி, கெட்டதை மறந்து விடலாமே !!
அவர் மேல் உங்களுக்கு நம்பிக்கை இல்லை என்றால், கமெண்ட் அடிக்காமல் இருப்பது நல்லது. (எனக்கும் அவரின் சித்து வேலைகளில் நம்பிக்கை இல்லை)
மற்றபடி வியாபாரதிற்காக புத்தகம் எழுதுபவர்கள் எழுதிக்கொண்டு தான் இருப்பர்.

jayasree
11-10-2004, 07:01 PM
It has been estimated that Sri Satya Sai Baba, India's biggest spiritual leader, has up to 30 million devotees around the world.

Very sad to know how people are deceived by such a person who is morally wrong and plays cheap tricks that a magician plays. The proof is that P.C.Sarkar the famous magician when he went to visit Saibaba, Saibaba gave him a lemon saying it is through divine power, whereas P.C.Sarkar gave him a pumpkin through magic.

Spiritually the people are blinded from knowing the truth and is really very pity to know how many ignorant, sincere and humble people put their hope and faith in not only Saibaba but in all cheating Gurus/Sadhus/anyone else.

My humble request is that people should start questioning about the origin, meaning of life and destiny and their coherence with our life.

I sincerely pray for every people so that they may know the truth

May God bless.

coolian
11-10-2004, 08:52 PM
Spiritually the people are blinded from knowing the truth and is really very pity to know how many ignorant, sincere and humble people put their hope and faith in not only Saibaba but in all cheating Gurus/Sadhus [or any one else]

Aaah...and what makes you the wise one amongst us, Jayasree? Ignorant people are those who make sweeping generalizations like you just did. Open your eyes.

Priyanka
11-11-2004, 04:34 AM
Yemaarravanga irukkara varaikkum yemaatharavan yemaatthindu thaan iruppaan. See saibaba did not force anybody to believe him. Did he knock anybody's door and say that they should beleive him. It is peoples mistake to have such a blind belief on him, and they have to suffer for it. We can't blame Saibaba for that.

coolian
11-11-2004, 01:55 PM
It is peoples mistake to have such a blind belief on him, and they have to suffer for it. No, it's not a "blind belief" and no, we're not "suffering for it". Why is everyone so bent on dishing out scathing statements like this?!?

jayasree
11-11-2004, 11:02 PM
Aaah...and what makes you the wise one amongst us, Jayasree? Ignorant people are those who make sweeping generalizations like you just did. Open your eyes.


1 Corinthians 1
20 God made foolish the wisdom of the world
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

God has opened my eyes (spritiually) to know the truth.

coolian
11-11-2004, 11:33 PM
PM me sometime, we'll chat. Let's not continue this on this thread.

bbabab2004
11-15-2004, 03:30 AM
saibaba is a great man. i dont know if he is God, only he will know that.
but all i know is he has done enough charitable work in and around
Karnataka and many other places in India.

jayasri user, you are right sometimes people put blind faith on some sadhus.
still as old proverb goes one cannot hoodwink all men all time.
so if someone is a charlatan he will be disgraced one day.

Teena
11-15-2004, 04:52 AM
Is this topic still going on?

If think many folks are still believing this con-man even after seeing his fraud magics.So sad. :(

Priyanka
11-15-2004, 05:22 AM
Is this topic still going on?

If think many folks are still believing this con-man even after seeing his fraud magics.So sad. :(

And that too after hearing about arrest of Jayendra Saraswathi!!

:00: :00: :00: :00: :00: :00: :00: :00:

Strange people!

Nicchiyam Saibaba-voda kuttum veliyaakum. 'தர்மத்தின வாழ்வுதனை சூது கவ்வும், இறுதியில் தர்மமே வெல்லும்.","சத்யமேவ ஜயதே" ippadi ellam chummaava solli vacchirukkaanga!

coolian
11-15-2004, 08:05 AM
Ok this is really pissing me off. Do you people even know enough of Sai Baba to comment on him? Or do you simply hear what other people say and accept that? If you cared enough to see Sai Baba and go to Puttaparthi, then do what you want. But the sad thing is, people like Jayashree, Teena and Priyanka simply pretend to know what they're talking about w/o substantial proof. If you don't believe in him, that's totally fine. But quit demeaning him, because I (and many others, I'm sure) am offended big time.

Teena
11-15-2004, 01:22 PM
I said many folks are still believing and I did not mean anyone's name here........Did I?

I have heard and and seen enough about him.All I can do is just sit and laugh when I see his tricks.

Priyanka
11-15-2004, 01:35 PM
Ofcourse, I have visited Puttabarthi and as Tina said have heard and seen enough about him. After visiting Puttabarthi, due to so many reasons, my bad opinion about Saibaba grew up like anything. Before visiting Puttabarthi, atleast I had some belief in Saibaba. But after visiting, suththamaa gaali!

coolian
11-15-2004, 01:54 PM
All I can do is just sit and laugh when I see his tricks. Precisely. Then do just that, instead of calling him names.

rashmi987
11-15-2004, 04:41 PM
My view is we can follow good principles from any person. But can't accept him as God and pray him.

Shy
01-04-2005, 12:06 AM
Guys,

Cool down.. not everyone are alike. Everyone have their own beliefs and opinions. though we might not agree on that, lets stay away from questioning it or concluding that its wrong.

About sai baba or kanchi or whoever it is, discuss about the stuff they had done right or wrong, but never at someones belief on them, its their wish pa :)

Shy

prasan8181
01-04-2005, 01:25 AM
Are we all not GOD?

coolian
01-04-2005, 04:00 AM
Lets stay away from questioning it or concluding that its wrong.
Thank you, Shy. Questioning is not a problem - I've questioned numerous beliefs myself, and will continue to do so. But concluding that something is wrong based on what others say, instead of finding it out for yourself, only tells everyone how ignorant you are.

prasan8181
02-08-2005, 02:48 PM
There is a long article on Puttaparthu Sai Baba in this weeks Sakthi Vikatan. If any of you are interested, take a look. It is interesting.

vijsesh
02-08-2005, 07:13 PM
I dont want to enter into this contreversial topic. But one thing I admire him is that the sevice his club is doing in puttaparthi. It was just amazing. Hospitals, colleges, medicals, free food for everyone. Whoever he might be either god or not but he is doing some social service to human kind.

I dont want to argue that if I have that much of money I will also do those stuff. Defenitely I will also do that. But think howmany of us donated howmuch for tsunami victims. Ofcourse we are greedy. I admire that quality atleast.

He MAY or MAY NOT be GOD

Bye
Vijsesh

Priyanka
02-08-2005, 07:20 PM
I dont want to enter into this contreversial topic. But one thing I admire him is that the sevice his club is doing in puttaparthi. It was just amazing. Hospitals, colleges, medicals, free food for everyone. Whoever he might be either god or not but he is doing some social service to human kind.

I dont want to argue that if I have that much of money I will also do those stuff. Defenitely I will also do that. But think howmany of us donated howmuch for tsunami victims. Ofcourse we are greedy. I admire that quality atleast.

He MAY or MAY NOT be GOD

Bye
Vijsesh

I agree with U.

prasan8181
02-08-2005, 07:47 PM
I was not looking for an argument. It is just for information. I hardly care if he is God or he is not God. I hardly care if he does good or is totally evil. Just that i remembered the discussion here, and since i saw an article in Vikatan, i posted it so that someone who dont believe in him may get a glimpse of why people call him God, or may call it crap. Eitherway is fine with me.

dinesh
02-08-2005, 10:55 PM
I dont want to enter into this contreversial topic. But one thing I admire him is that the sevice his club is doing in puttaparthi. It was just amazing. Hospitals, colleges, medicals, free food for everyone. Whoever he might be either god or not but he is doing some social service to human kind.
If you earn scandalous amounts of money you have to do something good to keep the public view away from you. There is no difference between this and a big corporate spending 0.0001% of their profits on a tree planting campaign.

coolian
02-08-2005, 11:52 PM
Dinesh, can you please provide some evidence of what you're talking about?

dinesh
02-09-2005, 12:44 AM
I take your point coolian.

But we must consider the reality here as well. This dude hardly runs a public limited company does he? How is one supposed to go and look at his accounts to determine what is happeing?

But when you consider this person came from a very poor background, and had no skills to earn a decent living nor had a well paying job, one is forced to wonder how he managed to build a model city in its entirety, especially in a land filled with poverty and starvation.

Questioning should be a birthright of everyone. If you needed to have evidence before questioning, then Newton would never have figured out gravitational forces. Instead he'd have had to build a shrine for the apple and worshipped it.

I question the power and money behind this whole outfit. I am not questioning whether this person has powers of god, because I don't give a damn about godly powers.

But if we cease to question any activity just because of lack of evidence, then that'd be the end of free thought and creativity. Becuase in such an unquestionable world places like China would be beacons of democracy, since no-one questions anything, and places like France would be the hotbed of corruption, since by questioing people will be unearthing the scum.

I noticed that you had mentioned in an earlier post that questioning makes one ignorant. I'm sorry to say this, but this is a totally laughable notion. The growth of the mankind itself is attributed to the man's ability of questioning. If we had stopped questioning in any period of our history, then our growth would have been brought to a standstill. One of the instances when man chose not to question was when the notion of god was introduced. This was a great tragedy and we can see the repercussions even today. Organizations unworthy of our respect and hard-earned money are profitting hugely by this historical accident. Regardless of the number of so-called holy men fromaround the world who have been convicted of the most heinous crimes, people still pour their energy and wealth into these organizations, which then buy power using it.

Another laughable notion is when people argue that these religious organisations are doing charitable work. This was the cause of my earlier remark. They have no other option but to do some charitable work, because otherwise people would start to question at one point or the other. Them doing some nominal amount of charity does not purify them once and for all. This is where I question their income and the amount the spend on public service. Is there any transperancy there? If I go to their headquarters and demand to see their accounts would they show it to me? I think i'd be lucky to get out of their alive. Consider this with a charitable organisation like Oxfam. Every one of your penny is accounted for and all the records are available to any one of the general public.

So in this situation does lack of proof mean I lose my right to question it? Does that automatically make me a liar?

I respect you for your views and your staunch belief in them Coolian, but does that mean everyone else who hold an alternative opinion is an idiot? Don't you think you should afford the same amount of respect to others' beliefs as much as you expect them to respect your views?

prasan8181
02-09-2005, 08:45 AM
I respect you for your views and your staunch belief in them Coolian, but does that mean everyone else who hold an alternative opinion is an idiot? Don't you think you should afford the same amount of respect to others' beliefs as much as you expect them to respect your views?

I dont really remember if Coolian has been forcing people to believe in Sai Baba. And did he call you or anyone an idiot for not believing in Sai Baba?

Well, even if he had called so, it is his opinion, and he has to right to think that you are an idiot. May be he should have restrained from saying so to you, but then you know, it sometimes happens in an argument. People get provoked.


Another laughable notion is when people argue that these religious organisations are doing charitable work. This was the cause of my earlier remark. They have no other option but to do some charitable work, because otherwise people would start to question at one point or the other.

If you start looking at things in that perspective, then nothing in this world would look good Dinesh. May be charity is just a blind they are using to deceive people. But who cares. And in a democracy, people are allowed to be as rich as they want. If they do so in illegal ways, they get caught someday or other. So it it the fact that Sai Baba is very rich which you dont like?


If I go to their headquarters and demand to see their accounts would they show it to me?

Try coming to me and asking me for my income. Or try coming to me and asking me how much i donated to the Tsunami relief. Why would i tell about my accounts to some xyz Dinesh? And what would you do if a stranger walks into your home and asks you, "hey, you have been working in US for such a long time. I have doubts you have earned money in illegal ways too. Can you show me your accounts?" Remeber, he is a nobody. Would you not kick him out?


noticed that you had mentioned in an earlier post that questioning makes one ignorant. I'm sorry to say this, but this is a totally laughable notion. The growth of the mankind itself is attributed to the man's ability of questioning. If we had stopped questioning in any period of our history, then our growth would have been brought to a standstill.

Questioning or not questioning depends on people. Some people know that questions certain things would never give them answers. So, they prefer not to question. They live in peace that way. Ignorance is bliss for them.

Sure, questioning helps in scientific progress. But not everyone is a scientist. Not everyone is even inquisitive. The majority of people just live. And they believe anything that makes them happy.


I question the power and money behind this whole outfit. I am not questioning whether this person has powers of god, because I don't give a damn about godly powers.


Mm. See, the prime ministers fund has collected about 400 Crores in 18 days for the Tsunami fund. 400 crores in 18 days! It could be the same way you see. Donations from people who believe in him. I am allowed to donate money if i like to, isn't it? After all, it is my hard earned money.


But when you consider this person came from a very poor background, and had no skills to earn a decent living nor had a well paying job, one is forced to wonder how he managed to build a model city in its entirety, especially in a land filled with poverty and starvation.

Perunthalaivar Kamarajar was an uneducated poor man. But people believed in him, and he rose to become the chief minister of Tamil Nadu, and his period is called the golden period. People believe in Sai Baba. Why they believe in him? There could be various reasons. It could mostly be because of personal encounters with him, because of the so called miracles he is said to have performed... a lot of things like that. That is why I pointed to that article in Vikatan, where someone writes briefly about the life history of Baba and his miracles and his teachings. Hm, sad thing, but i now see that none has read it yet.

Well, to conclude, I am not a believer of Sai Baba. Nor am i a non-believer. That man never crossed my life, and i dont care till he crosses my life. And my point in posting that post of mine was not to start a new discussion on this topic. But just incase anyone wants to know more about that guy, i am just showing them a place where they can read it up. I hope my tone above is not offensive. It could be mildly sarcastic, but that is just for fun. Have a nice day.

Prasanna.

Priyanka
02-09-2005, 01:33 PM
Wow! Prasan. 'Sabash sariyaana potti' :sm12: Nice arguement. :b:

vaalu2005
02-09-2005, 02:45 PM
Dinesh and Prasan.....Good job.....


Dinesh im really impressed that every single word there looks like it came from me. I would like to see more from you on this topic.


Prasan....You argument was precise too...Im not sure about one thing though.


Quote:If I go to their headquarters and demand to see their accounts would they show it to me?


Try coming to me and asking me for my income. Or try coming to me and asking me how much i donated to the Tsunami relief. Why would i tell about my accounts to some xyz Dinesh? And what would you do if a stranger walks into your home and asks you, "hey, you have been working in US for such a long time. I have doubts you have earned money in illegal ways too. Can you show me your accounts?" Remeber, he is a nobody. Would you not kick him out?




I accept you point, that no one has got any rights to go to someone and ask their accounts. But again that is only as long as its personal. When you talk about charitable organisation i guess theres nothing wrong in being open. when things go public everything needs to be transparent. Just recollect the new law that make every conditate in the election to provide all their accounts. This is only for people who come to public life. When you talk about sai baba and his organisation its not a private body its 100% a public body and theres absolutely nothing wrong in being transparent. If you see even Dinesh' exmaple was Oxfam which is again a public organisation. So you point about asking question if Dinesh would show his accounts to some stranger is not valid i suppose.

Now about my view...

I firmly believe that everyone who claims to be GOD or GOD's Messenger is the biggest liar on this earth. People who are capable of doing some magic are the once who claim themselves as Gods or Gods Messenger. Taking Lingam from mouth and similar stuffs only makes peopel with brain laugh. Kamarajar and Sai Baba doesnt make sense because one was simple man who belived in simplicity and claimed himself a normal man like everyone of us. The other claims to be with super natural power.

I hope we all in touch on that day...WHICH DAY?
""the day Mr Sai baba has been arrested"



I have not read the article yet . Let me read that and come back.


Any Firm String belivers of Sai baba Please dont get offended. Put your views in words rather than cursing me :)...You never know i might be convinced with your points that hes not a cheat.....

"Ematratheee ematratheee emarathee emaratheee....."
nice song.......

Vaalu

coolian
02-09-2005, 05:23 PM
Prasan, couldn't have put it across better.


I noticed that you had mentioned in an earlier post that questioning makes one ignorant.
Dude, I've no idea what you are talking about. I doubt you even read my posts properly in the first place! This is what I said, verbatim: "Questioning is not a problem - I've questioned numerous beliefs myself, and will continue to do so. But concluding that something is wrong based on what others say, instead of finding it out for yourself, only tells everyone how ignorant you are."


So in this situation does lack of proof mean I lose my right to question it? Does that automatically make me a liar?
Your entire post assumes that I said that questioning is wrong - I suggest you re-read the posts, Dinesh.


I respect you for your views and your staunch belief in them Coolian, but does that mean everyone else who hold an alternative opinion is an idiot? Don't you think you should afford the same amount of respect to others' beliefs as much as you expect them to respect your views?
Like prasan said, did I call anyone an idiot? I've no idea where you extract such nonsense from. I respect everyone's beliefs - at the same time, I expect everyone to respect mine. Almost everyone in this thread has shot several scathing comments at Sai Baba - all of which are based on nothing but speculation. When I asked you for evidence, you tried to brush it off. Newton saw that apple fall (which, by the way, never happened) but the fact that the apple DID fall was evidence that gravity exists. If you question, strive to search for the answers, Dinesh. No point just "questioning" and guessing and speculating with absolutely no evidence or fact to support you.

dinesh
02-09-2005, 10:43 PM
I dont really remember if Coolian has been forcing people to believe in Sai Baba. And did he call you or anyone an idiot for not believing in Sai Baba?

Like prasan said, did I call anyone an idiot? I've no idea where you extract such nonsense from. I respect everyone's beliefs - at the same time, I expect everyone to respect mine.
"Aaah...and what makes you the wise one amongst us, Jayasree? Ignorant people are those who make sweeping generalizations like you just did. Open your eyes." This was a statement made by coolian on Wed Nov 10, 2004. Jayasree did not agree with coolian's opinion and this was the reply from coolian. Anyone who does not agree with his views is either ignorant or unwise.


Well, even if he had called so, it is his opinion, and he has to right to think that you are an idiot. May be he should have restrained from saying so to you, but then you know, it sometimes happens in an argument. People get provoked. Of course he has a right to think I am an idiot as much as I have the right to think he is. That is not my problem. And he did not say it to me, I never said he did.

If one is easily provoked then one should not try to participate in constructive arguments, because one's temper will always blind one nad never let one's mind to think unbiased. This is not a place to show off one's temper. If one has a dire need to exhibit one's temper, then one perhaps should start a site of one's own and shout in private.


If you start looking at things in that perspective, then nothing in this world would look good Dinesh. May be charity is just a blind they are using to deceive people. But who cares. And in a democracy, people are allowed to be as rich as they want. If they do so in illegal ways, they get caught someday or other. So it it the fact that Sai Baba is very rich which you dont like?
There are good things in the world my friend. You are cleverly avoiding parts of my arguments and quoting me out of context. I mentioned Oxfam. They are a good thing and they are open about it. Try comparing that with all the other dubious and pretentious ventures.

Of course democracy allows one to be rich. But democracy does not allow one to cheat and rob.

Also note that you are turning to democracy only when you need it (ie, only when you try and explain the wealth). Where is my democratic right to question then? Even the richest public companies have to declare their financial status every year and I can go and see them and their registered address. Even they are not exempt from the auditing procedures in the democratic world. Who audits this person's riches?


Try coming to me and asking me for my income. Or try coming to me and asking me how much i donated to the Tsunami relief. Why would i tell about my accounts to some xyz Dinesh? And what would you do if a stranger walks into your home and asks you, "hey, you have been working in US for such a long time. I have doubts you have earned money in illegal ways too. Can you show me your accounts?" Remeber, he is a nobody. Would you not kick him out?
Please don't argue just for arguments sake. Why would I want to look at your financial position? Are you publicizing yourself as the next saviour? Do you earn money in unorthodox ways so that you cannot be accounted for income taxes? Do you manage to produce gold out of thin air, and thus destabilise the international gold and gold futures markets and hence contravene the SEC rules? Do you have disgruntled followers complaining about your private acts with them? (this is another place where you conveniently forget about "democracy", in an absolute democracy every such complaint would have to be treated seriously and a criminal investigation must take place, regardless whether the complaint is genuine or not).
Why would I ever want to look at your details and finances?


Questioning or not questioning depends on people. Some people know that questions certain things would never give them answers. So, they prefer not to question. They live in peace that way. Ignorance is bliss for them.
Hence they are ignorant, not the ones who question. You guys are trying to build up a case against me so that you can prove I only question and then run away. I have strong convictions (as I am sure you do), but I am always willing to be convinced. That is why I always engage in constructive arguments. If I learn something from this exercise then I would be even happier because i learnt something new, which never would have happened if I had not participated in the argument.

Geetham is a place where we actively encourage constructive conversation. So, if you come and make a statement, then you should always be prepared to be questioned. There is nothing called the ultimate truth.(Well, some people believe there is, but that's a different debate)


Sure, questioning helps in scientific progress. But not everyone is a scientist. Not everyone is even inquisitive. The majority of people just live. And they believe anything that makes them happy.
Questioning does not just help scientific processes. Did you not read my previous post? Mankind's entire history was built upon questioning. If Lenin and Marx had not questioned the futility of aristocracy then Communism would never have born. Was this a scientific process?

How many billions and trillions of people came and went since the birth of the earth? but how many are still remembered by us? If you do not question or think about the things around you then what is the point in living a life?


Perunthalaivar Kamarajar was an uneducated poor man. But people believed in him, and he rose to become the chief minister of Tamil Nadu, and his period is called the golden period.
Perunthalaivar Kamarajar never pinched even a penny for himself. He never hid away from accusations. Enough said.

Well, to conclude, I am not a believer of Sai Baba. Nor am i a non-believer. That man never crossed my life, and i dont care till he crosses my life. And my point in posting that post of mine was not to start a new discussion on this topic. But just incase anyone wants to know more about that guy, i am just showing them a place where they can read it up. I hope my tone above is not offensive. It could be mildly sarcastic, but that is just for fun. Have a nice day.
My point in posting (actually i started the thread) was also to engage in discussion. And I also tried to show some places where people can read it up. Unfortunately all my links turned out to say something bad about this person. Is that my fault?

Again I have posted for fun too. And I wish a nice day to you too, my friend.

vasan
02-09-2005, 11:08 PM
To "return back" to original content or question at hand..

Does the admirably many charitable works done by Sai Baba and his organization (is that the correct word? forgive me if I am wrong.. ) justify or suggest that he is Godman?

Are there Godmen in this world? I know there are several genuinely humble and honest and 'saintly' living people - but are there people with divine powers, supernatural abilities at all? :think:

If yes, then should these people supernatural abilities be 'helping' people in supernatural ways too? I am not belittling the charitable work done by Saibaba, but just wondering how the supernatural powers are 'translated' into good deeds for needy people? (Ofcourse, these are musings, and no one needs to justify their beliefs or work... but just wondering all the same.. )..

v-

dinesh
02-09-2005, 11:17 PM
Prasan, couldn't have put it across better.
Therefore, I believe I have answered most of your questions ;)


Dude, I've no idea what you are talking about. I doubt you even read my posts properly in the first place! This is what I said, verbatim: "Questioning is not a problem - I've questioned numerous beliefs myself, and will continue to do so. But concluding that something is wrong based on what others say, instead of finding it out for yourself, only tells everyone how ignorant you are."
You have cleverly avoided quoting yourself entirely. This was what you actually said.
"It's pretty saddening to see articles like these - but then again, the ignorant man has always been known to question, and this has gone on for millenia. Questioning is not a bad thing in itself, but one should strive to know the answer instead of just shooting questions and then chilling out. Don't base your beliefs on someone elses'.

Couple this with your answer to jaysree, and I guess you will get what I mean.


Your entire post assumes that I said that questioning is wrong - I suggest you re-read the posts, Dinesh.
I never post just for th esake of posting, my friend. And there is no need for me to re-read. But since you requested me to re-read I did re-read and found out another quote from you. "PM me sometime, we'll chat. Let's not continue this on this thread." This was what you said in response to jaysree quoting from Corinthians. No doubt your reasoning is not to divert this thread, but surely you could have started up a public thread and talked about it, or at least said whether you agree or disagree with that verse. Why did you not do that? Surely you can't request evidence in that case, since jaysree quoted what she believed was the ultimate evidence one could find anywhere, so why did you not answer her?


Like prasan said, did I call anyone an idiot? I've no idea where you extract such nonsense from.
I have already answered this in the previous post.


I respect everyone's beliefs - at the same time, I expect everyone to respect mine.
I am sure you respect everyone, though I was quite worried for a bit whether I might be ignorant and unwise, but somehow managed to convince myself that I was neither (though I'm sure many people in Geetham think I am both, and I will definitely rot in hell :sm12:)

And coolian, I do hope that you understand that I respect your views, and all my comments are not aimed personally at you.


When I asked you for evidence, you tried to brush it off.
No, I did not. I accepted plainly that I did not have any concrete evidence (except perhaps the videos available from the link I provided, but then it is not my evidence, it's definitely someone else's)
I have also tried to explain why it is not always possible to make decisions based on concrete evidence. I believe I have sufficiently explained that. I am not going to go through that exercixe once more. Either you accept my argument or you don't (and I have a slight feeling you don't).


Newton saw that apple fall (which, by the way, never happened) but the fact that the apple DID fall was evidence that gravity exists.
That never happened and I accept that, but I thought that would be a good parallel.

Which was exactly what I was saying. If you never had questioned why apples fall, then you would never have discovered gravity. It is by the questioning process that you arrive at conclusions, not by looking for colncluded and concrete evidence before questioning.


If you question, strive to search for the answers, Dinesh.
I already knew that my friend. I always strive for the answer. That was why I started this topic. That was why I looked this case up in the internet and provided you links for numerous videos. Above everything else, that is why I spend this much time sitting in front of a computer typing all this. Just a small wish whether I might learn something from these conversations.


No point just "questioning" and guessing and speculating with absolutely no evidence or fact to support you.
I don't need concrete facts and evidence all the time. I have an average brain which is more than good enough to logically analyse matters and I am making use of that.

But you are wrong when you say I question without evidence at all. Do you think I was born with an absolute conviction against this person. At some point in my life I developed these thoughts and that was guided by various things I read and saw and above all was guided by the belief that there is nothing called god, and hence there can be no human being which can have the powers of god. I have presented some of these evidence as internet links in the first page.( Did you manage to visit these sites?, btw)

But what I do accept is that the evidence is shaky. That is why I am prepared to be convinced. That is why I started this topic so that people will come up with interesting arguments for and against. And I believe that has happened to an extent.

PS: It would be great if we can avoid comments of a personal nature. I wouldn't mind but there are moderators around who get all twitchy when they see persoanl insults. It would be sad if we lose this topic because of personal insults.

dinesh
02-09-2005, 11:20 PM
Dude, I've no idea what you are talking about.
There was a guy in geetham who almost declared a war on me for calling him dude. I wonder what he'd have said if he saw this :sm12:

PS:This is a light-hearted comment. Don't take it seriously!

prasan8181
02-10-2005, 10:07 AM
Are there Godmen in this world? I know there are several genuinely humble and honest and 'saintly' living people - but are there people with divine powers, supernatural abilities at all? Thinking

If yes, then should these people supernatural abilities be 'helping' people in supernatural ways too? I am not belittling the charitable work done by Saibaba, but just wondering how the supernatural powers are 'translated' into good deeds for needy people? (Ofcourse, these are musings, and no one needs to justify their beliefs or work... but just wondering all the same.. )..


Read the article in Shakthi Vikatan this week about this guy Vasan. It says he has healed many people. Like Jesus did. Well, vikatan says so. Not me.

prasan8181
02-10-2005, 10:18 AM
And Dinesh, i have absolutely no way of returning your arguments. You are right in what you say. But dont expect to be convinced. People cannot convice you to believe that Sai Baba is a God man or whatever. The only way you or I can believe that is by experiencing the Godly powers of Sai Baba. By Godly powers of Sai Baba i dont mean him ability to perform tricks or miracles. It is about the peace and joy you get when you are near a spiritual leader in a spiritual place.

I saw a video yesterday where a guy takes a crushed beer can and then closes the lid and when he opens it, it is filled with beer, as if bought again from the mall. Only that he does not call himself God (may be because that is the only trick he can perform :p ). And magicians perform numerous tricks too. I have no idea how they do that. I wish i could learn some of them (just for the knowledge of it, impressing girls come later ;)

Prasanna.

Priyanka
02-10-2005, 03:16 PM
Read the article in Shakthi Vikatan this week about this guy Vasan. It says he has healed many people. Like Jesus did. Well, vikatan says so. Not me.

Prasan, one humble request. For heaven's sake please don't compare this man with Jesus Christ. :doh: He does not deserve it.

prasan8181
02-10-2005, 04:51 PM
Read the article in Shakthi Vikatan this week about this guy Vasan. It says he has healed many people. Like Jesus did. Well, vikatan says so. Not me.

Prasan, one humble request. For heaven's sake please don't compare this man with Jesus Christ. :doh: He does not deserve it.

Well, I am sorry. It is not really comparing, but... well, you know, even Jesus had to do some miracles or tricks to make his contemporaries believe in him. He was disliked by many in his time too. He called himself a son of God too. Hey, i seriously dont mean to hurt anyone's religious feeling here. I apologive if someone is hurt because of that.

prasan8181
02-10-2005, 04:56 PM
Read the article in Shakthi Vikatan this week about this guy Vasan. It says he has healed many people. Like Jesus did. Well, vikatan says so. Not me.

Prasan, one humble request. For heaven's sake please don't compare this man with Jesus Christ. :doh: He does not deserve it.

Well, I am sorry. It is not really comparing, but... well, you know, even Jesus had to do some miracles or tricks to make his contemporaries believe in him. He was disliked by many in his time too. He called himself a son of God too. Hey, i seriously dont mean to hurt anyone's religious feeling here. I apologive if someone is hurt because of that.

Well, ofcourse there is a difference. This man is rich. These days people who call themselves "sanyasis" handle a lot of money. Which is what makes us uneasy. Infact, is that the only reason we suspect them?

Well, may be times have changed. And when the world is governed by money, sadhus too can serve the world only with money. Er, i dont know. May be.

coolian
02-10-2005, 06:11 PM
Ok I spent an hour writing replies - and pressed the ******* Tamil box by mistake. "amma" has replaced everything I wrote. Time to brood.

Shy
02-10-2005, 06:25 PM
Ok I spent an hour writing replies - and pressed the ******* Tamil box by mistake. "amma" has replaced everything I wrote. Time to brood.

:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

Beautiful arguments guys :b: ......


Shy

Kalyan
02-13-2005, 07:29 PM
So how many of you guys have heard of Sivasankar Baba... And from where does India get all these clowns from?

coolian
02-13-2005, 11:07 PM
Where did Israel and the Middle East get those clowns from?

Narayana
02-14-2005, 04:30 AM
Hey! Everyone
me late to this thread.. still have any one of you read Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series?? Read it. Its highly philosophical.. makes you think... Its all people's faith. If u think u get a moral support/inner voice/whatever.. if you believe in God/Human-God/whatever.. then no one is going to stop u. If you are a rationalist and think that all problems can be solved logically and you dont need something 'Divine' to get confidence or assurance, then dont believe in divinity and no one can force u to. Also you cant tell others to move away from their beliefs. But Never accuse any1 without proof bcoz its innocent until proven guilty. If the so-called saints teach good things, then following them isnt bad. But then anything shld be within the limits and be logical. I know ppl. who when having to take a difficult decision pray for hours and then do it. Maybe thats the same as reasoning out....
For some , music gives peace, for others it may be sleeping( :EE: ) or it'll be prayers for some. anyway all's well that ends well.
--N

Narayana
02-14-2005, 04:45 AM
sorry didnt see the second page...

For heaven's sake please don't compare this man with Jesus Christ.
hey Priyanka! dont read da Vinci Code OK? u may be offended.... :fight:

If u see something u can say that it exists, but if u dont see it u cant say that it doesnt exist.. :think:

People not believing in abc or xyz or the numerous other saints available in India :D :ee: should not blieve in Christ or Krishna ... but the funny thing is they DO. What else but tricks of Time!!

--N :b: :b:

dinesh
02-14-2005, 06:27 AM
hey Priyanka! dont read da Vinci Code OK? u may be offended....
Da Vinci code is an interesting fiction. But, it is just a fiction. There so no historical proof whatsoever behind it.
Where did Israel and the Middle East get those clowns from?
Which clowns? :think:

Priyanka
02-14-2005, 08:28 AM
Da Vinci code is an interesting fiction. But, it is just a fiction. There so no historical proof whatsoever behind it.

That may be a fiction. I don't know about the other part of the story. But did you see the painting "Last Supper"? I saw it on the net. I can swear the person sitting on the right of Jesus is a female. It is so obvious.

vasan
02-14-2005, 08:34 PM
That may be a fiction. I don't know about the other part of the story. But did you see the painting "Last Supper"? I saw it on the net. I can swear the person sitting on the right of Jesus is a female. It is so obvious.

:) :)

Last supper depicts the scene where Jesus dines for the last time (part takes in the Jewish festival of Passover), and it has Jesus along with 12 apostles. All of them guys.. :P :P

If you think 'its obvious' that one of them looks like a female, then you are questioning the painting ability of Da Vinci... :P :P

The one you think is a pretty young woman is not a woman. Thats John (or Da Vinci's imagination of how John would have looked...).. He looks that way because he was very very young.. (mid teens??) while all the others are in 30-50s... Peter was quite an old man....

v-

Priyanka
02-14-2005, 11:28 PM
The one you think is a pretty young woman is not a woman.

Pesaama Jesus-ku right hand side okkandhundrukkarathu male-aa female-aanu oru patti mandram aarambicchuduvomaa? :sm12:

No Vasan. That face looks so Faminine. It MUST be a female.

Priyanka
02-14-2005, 11:34 PM
May be Da vinci believed that a female was also present during "The Last Supper".

Shy
02-15-2005, 12:39 AM
uh-oh priyanka, puthu kulappama ithu.. naraiya kathai solveengalae.. eppaidyum oru kathai undunu.. regarding hindu epics.. athu mathiri ithaiyum arambhichu vidunga :lol: :lol:

coolian, Israel and mid east enna clowns??? can you elaborate a bit :)

Shy

CupOfCoffee
02-15-2005, 12:39 AM
HMMmmm...Dan Brown mixed Fiction with some facts in his novel. We read Dan Brown`s version in his novel not what really it is !,...This will always be a matter of controversy.

coming to Putabarthi Saibaba...I went through some sites which had some controversial video files abt his miracles....But I guess some who believe may get offended if i give the links here..

I think if a person believes in him/herself , there is no need for any other person to guide him or her in life.

Cheers.

Shy
02-15-2005, 12:48 AM
HMMmmm...Dan Brown mixed Fiction with some facts in his novel. We read Dan Brown`s version in his novel not what really it is !,...This will always be a matter of controversy.

coming to Putabarthi Saibaba...I went through some sites which had some controversial video files abt his miracles....But I guess some who believe may get offended if i give the links here..

I think if a person believes in him/herself , there is no need for any other person to guide him or her in life.
Cheers.

Welcome to Geetham CupOfCoffee ... Hope you enjoy your stay :)

Back to the topic..

I agree, in my opinion, I dont think that they need them for guiding their life, they go to god or God man just for peace and solace. In reality they all know that life is in your hands and God or Godman cant do anything. I know there are many who want miracles to happen. thats human tendency you know when u are in trouble.

Shy

dinesh
02-15-2005, 01:05 AM
I can swear the person sitting on the right of Jesus is a female. It is so obvious.
There is a reason for that. It is widely believes that the Renaissance artists used young women as models to draw adolescent men. This is the widely accepted reasoning behind why John appears like a woman. Apart form that, there is not much proof that it was Magdalene who was in the picture.

CupOfCoffee
02-15-2005, 01:10 AM
HMMmmm...Dan Brown mixed Fiction with some facts in his novel. We read Dan Brown`s version in his novel not what really it is !,...This will always be a matter of controversy.

coming to Putabarthi Saibaba...I went through some sites which had some controversial video files abt his miracles....But I guess some who believe may get offended if i give the links here..

I think if a person believes in him/herself , there is no need for any other person to guide him or her in life.
Cheers.

Welcome to Geetham CupOfCoffee ... Hope you enjoy your stay :)

Back to the topic..

I agree, in my opinion, I dont think that they need them for guiding their life, they go to god or God man just for peace and solace. In reality they all know that life is in your hands and God or Godman cant do anything. I know there are many who want miracles to happen. thats human tendency you know when u are in trouble.

Shy

Hhhhmmm.... so everybody knows that nobody can help them if not they themselves, yeah you got my point, then tell me, why do they expect a miracle from a " GODMAN " when they themselves can get in to direct contact with GOD and y do they need mediator between themselves and GOD ? that brings all the troubles.

There are hardships in this life and you cant keep on expecting a miracle for the blunders which were made by a person to himself, just try to slove it why runnning behind a so called GODMAN ???

cheers.

Narayana
02-15-2005, 01:50 AM
I agree, in my opinion, I dont think that they need them for guiding their life, they go to god or God man just for peace and solace. In reality they all know that life is in your hands and God or Godman cant do anything. I know there are many who want miracles to happen. thats human tendency you know when u are in trouble.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Welcome CupofCoffee!
Enter the debate. from what i've heard, the believers dont expect a miracle. it supposedly happens at some point of their life. after that u cant shake em from their faith. i dont knw. Enjoy ur stay in G.
--N

ramalingam
02-16-2005, 07:17 AM
உண்மையான சாமியார் அல்லது மக்கள் நலனுக்காக நன்மை செய்யவேண்ட ும் என்ற எண்ணத்தோடு அல்லது மக்களை நல்வழிப்பட ுத்தவேண்டு ம் என்ற கொள்கையோடு யாராவது ஒருவர் இருக்கின்ற ார் என்றால் அவர் முதலில் தன்னை கட்வுளின் அவதாரம் என்று சொல்லிக்கொ (ல்ல)ள்ள மாட்டார். மேலும் அவர் எந்தவித ஆசாபாசங்கள ுக்கும் கட்டுப்பட் டவராக இருக்கமாட் டார். சுயவிளம்பர ங்கள் தேவைப்படமா ட்டாது. அலங்கார உடைக்கோ ஊர்திக்கோ இடம்தரமாட் டார்கள். charitable trust
என்ற பெயரில் பொருளீட்டு ம் நிறுவனங்கள ை நிறுவி கோடிக்கு அதிபதி ஆகமாட்டார் கள். ஒரு power centre-ஆக, அரசியல்வாத ிக்களுக்கு இணையான டாம்பீக வாழ்க்கையை விரும்பமாட ்டார்கள். தனக்கென்று அடியாட்களை யும், ஒரு பெரும் படையையும் வைத்திருக் கமாட்டார்க ள். மக்களைக் கவர சித்து விலையாடல்க ள் புரியமாட்ட ார்கள். இப்படி தன்னலம் கருதாது மனிதனை மனித வழியில் நடத்தி மனிதகுலத்த ின் மேன்மைக்கா க எவர் தன்னை அற்பணித்து க்கொள்கிரா ரோ அவரே உத்தமர், அவரே ஞானி, அவரே சுவாமி, அவரே மகாபுருஷர் . மட்றெல்லாம ே போலிகள். இப்படியெல் லாம் ஒருவர் இருந்தார் என்றால் எனக்கு தெரிந்தவரை , குரு இரமண மகரிஷி ஒருவர்தாம் .

raghu
02-22-2005, 04:20 PM
to me there is only one GOD ,but i think i should share what i saw, when i was a young i saw veebuthi and kumkum falling from all Goda pictures in our neighbours house,they where great sai followers.i saw them with my own eyes....................even after all that i didnt feel like becoming his follower.may b he has some powers may b not.........but this is not the first time iam reading abt his sexual assault, there was an article in times ....3-4 yrs back.God knows the truth........

skandasai_ram
05-23-2009, 07:59 PM
Hi every one,

it s better to stop commenting him,we have no rights to judge others becoz individual who s commenting he/she is not are qualified.


regards
Krishna.A:sm100::sm100::sm100: :sm100:

reddy433
05-28-2009, 08:01 PM
i think sai is a good person, doing good to the humanity...
just visit a hospital and its free
just visit a school/university and its free
and there r lot of other positive things about him

he is doing good to everyone....he didn't do any harm....

thats my opinion

jaffredi
03-06-2010, 06:19 AM
I am truly Devotee of sai baba . And i am totally depended on sai baba.
Dentasmile Md (http://ezinearticles.com/?Denta-Smile-MD-Review&id=3852536)

msram52
03-06-2010, 09:37 AM
Hi
It seems there is some conspiracy in tarnishing Hindu faith.
It is better those who are commenting on Hinduism also comment
and investigate Popes and Shias and come out with truh.
Why Hinduism alone?
Go ahead and go to Rome
Ram Ram

jaggus
03-06-2010, 01:56 PM
Very unfortunate that peoples mind is full of ugly energies, we speak ill of people who have done yomen service to mankind by giving peace to the disturbed, water to the thirsty (anantpur), medicine to the needy (super speciality hospital in puttaparthi, and thousands of other services, which the elected representatives have failed to do for the common man.
It is very painful that God has created, such ungrateful beings.