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Bluelotus
10-07-2004, 10:40 PM
You may or may not have heard of Charlotte Wyatt.
She was born 3 months early, 11 months ago. A premature baby who has not left her incubator since her birth. During her stay at the hospital she has several times stoped breathing and was resucitated. She weighed just a mere pound (abt 500g) at birth and has serious lung and heart problems.
She cannot suck from a bottle and has been fed through a tube for her entire life so far. :(

the doctors decided that the baby should not be resuscitated if she stoped breathing again.
the parents objected. the whole thing went to court.


What do you think?

when should treatment be stopped?

anainar
10-07-2004, 11:00 PM
Blue,

It is a touch decision. Life revolves around hope whether children or older men. Hoping that a miracle might happen. That is the reason Doctors fight with every possible means to prevent death. I will support the parents for their wish to fight, hoping for a miracle. No way one can give up hope.

Cheers

silican
10-07-2004, 11:13 PM
Though I feel the parents are right in requiring treatment for their child, expecting some improvement one day, Its really hard for the baby to live artificially. I cant make a decision though.

Silican

Priyanka
10-08-2004, 01:41 AM
This is a very hard decision to make. Doctor parents rendu per sidelaiyum gnyayam irukkaraa maadiri thonudhu. Andha kozhandhai kandippa pozhaikkathunnu therinjaal etthanai naal adhai vacchu kaapaattha mudiyum. Etthanai naal athai incubator-liye vacchu artificiala athai vazha vekka mudiyum. Eleven months is too long a period. Sari aagirathunna andha kozhandhaikki itthannaale sari aayirukkanum. Inimel sariyaahumnu nambarathu muttaal thanam.

Athe samaiyam parents side-laiyum yosicchu parkanume. Andha kozhandhaiyoda amma pregnancy-yoda ovvoru state-laiyum "Namakku kuzhandhai porakka pohudhu"nu enna oru aavala ethir parthiruppaanga! Apper patta kozhandhaiyai ezhakkaratthukku yaarukku thaan manasu varum.

At present I think both are correct in their views. Romba kashtampa intha nelamai. Indha maadiri kashtam ini vera yaarukkum vara koodathunnu aandavanai vendikkarathai thavira naam veru enna panna mudiyum?

ashokcsn_2000
10-08-2004, 02:37 AM
I would side with the side of the parents who have hope for the child. The child has been survivin for 11 months even though in an incubator... There is always hope and that is what keeps all of us going. miracles do happen but they occur due to the faith u have in them and the hard work of all those involved...
Emotionally it is difficult to part with someone if you have been with them for quite sometime. In this case the parents would have had less strain if the baby dint make it at the right beginning.. but now after all these months and then the effort put into it they wouldnt want to let it die without trying really hard to keep it alive and bring it back to normal condition. If they do that then they will have to live with the guilt of not having tried that one last time to keep their daughter alive.

dinesh
10-08-2004, 08:27 AM
The judge has given his verdict yesterday. He has said that the baby should be allowed to die peacefully rather than go through it's constantly painful life.

ragi_kutty
10-08-2004, 08:38 AM
Hey this is a very hard discussion.........:baby:

We had this discussion in our form class yesterday and I think that:

Yeah, If I was the childs parent I would have done anything to keep the baby alive

but that its going through a constant pain.........:cry:

I don't even like babies crying......i mean they are soo sweet and that its going through pain......i can't even stand that.......:(

RaasuKutty
10-08-2004, 02:50 PM
Tougher decisions in life.. I dont think I wud be able to answer such a question nor comment on the judgement..

Anyway, I had a question related to this.. I will post it soon..

Bluelotus
10-08-2004, 08:56 PM
yes it certainly is a very tough decision and I sincerely hope that none of you will have to make it.

quite interesting how the majority of those who have responded, have done so in favour of the parents.

I'm not sure if you know this....abortion is still legal in many countries up to 22 or even 24 weeks.
If one considers that aborted child a fetus....basically still undeveloped enough not to be accorded rights...so to speak...

Charlotte was barely 25 weeks when she was born.
Development wise...still pretty much a fetus....not a baby....and although she has survived for 11 months in an incubator...her growth is very stunted.
She has stoped breathing sevral times too within the time she was in the incubator...lack of oxygen for a developing brain is really a big problem...

To be honest I do not belive that she would be able to live past her infancy....however advanced medical science is these days.

Is she a fighter? I don't know......she has survived for 11 months you say....you know medical science is soo good these days you can keep a dead man alive for years....

I think we have become a culture which cannot let go.

please do not misunderstand what I'm trying to say...

I do understand the grief felt by the parents.....no parent should be put through this.
I do hope for that miracle.....
but if no miracle is to be had...I want that baby to stop suffering...

the parents wanted to put that child through a tracheostomy...that's bad enough on a grown adult...but on such a tiny delicate baby...who is not even as strong as a newborn???
how can you wish to put your child through so much pain?
I rather have my daughter pass away...even if I have no further offsprings......
cruel ..and and insensitive perhaps...but remains my opinion...

some babies ...have "the will" to grab on and not let go....they fight the odds and win....they develop grow and come out of the incubator....put not all babies are like that

and 20 years ago ...this baby was not meant to be....it would not have survived for so long...science has progressed so , that it is possible to keep her alive.....but will she have at least a semblence of normalcy in her life?

I think we need to realise as a whole ...when to let go ...and when to keep fighting
just because we can keep a dead man alive...doesn't mean that we should

each case is different...

well I guess I'm crass enough to express my inhumane feelings...but hey that's me :ahha:

vasan
10-08-2004, 09:12 PM
Those are some seriously thoughtful comments from the parents view point, Blue... It's neither crass nor inhumane - perspective and heartfelt would be more accurate..

But thats not all of it..

Inspite of all the medical advancements made, the amount of resources - personnel, facilities, medicine, equipment, money etc - are not really infinite. Say I am a doctor, and I have only so many of these, but for some sad reason the number of people - premature babies that need care and attention - is high.. What am I supposed to do? Keep a baby (which has the slimmest chance of survival) for eleven months or perhaps use the facilities to save a baby that might just need it for a week? Should I let other babies wither away (for lack of facilities etc) and doom their parents to suffer?

Its not an easy choice. Can't play God, saying who will we choose...

The last view point - so far as I know - is what the judge himself/herself used. Should the baby suffer? Should we prolong its pain till its eventual death or should we let it go in peace (however horrible it may sound.. )..

Never mind that I am a prolifer (mostly!) and against death penalty (definitely!) and so on.. But these kinda cases simply refuse to be logically defined.. My stand points and my beliefs are clashing... Somehow the Solomon style wisdom is not what I have.. :(

Whichever way it goes.. May God grant peace for the suffering parents, and the poor baby... Such a such a heart breaking tragedy... really..

Still sorrowful.. :(

Vasan

Bluelotus
10-08-2004, 09:44 PM
May God grant peace for the suffering parents, and the poor baby
indeed.

butterfly
10-08-2004, 10:26 PM
Blues,
I dont want to discuss this as a patti mantram...but wud like to share my views here...Hope u dont mind :pray:



You may or may not have heard of Charlotte Wyatt.
She was born 3 months early, 11 months ago. A premature baby who has not left her incubator since her birth. During her stay at the hospital she has several times stoped breathing and was resucitated. She weighed just a mere pound (abt 500g) at birth and has serious lung and heart problems.
She cannot suck from a bottle and has been fed through a tube for her entire life so far.

the doctors decided that the baby should not be resuscitated if she stoped breathing again.
the parents objected. the whole thing went to court.


What do you think?

when should treatment be stopped?



First of all its heartbreaking incident for every human being...but it does happen...& as our human nature is to care & give it all we forget to reason out the real facts

from wat i read of charlotte here...
1 )she has been on the incubator for 11 months

2) During her stay at the hospital she has several times stoped breathing and was resucitated.

3 )She weighed just a mere pound (abt 500g) at birth and has serious lung and heart problems.

4 )She cannot suck from a bottle and has been fed through a tube for her entire life so far.

Basically she is totaly dependent....

When our brain is not getting enough Oxygen ...the brain is irreversibly damaged within as little as 3 minutes, If she was resucitated few times u can imagine the amount of brain damage...so wat is the quality of her Life?

she has serious lung& heart problems...so basically problems with circulation & breathing...which are the important function of our body to keep us alive....The complications arising frm this...


This child is tubefed...it cud be intravenous or thru a enteral tube which feeds directly to her stomach...it doesnt specify...wat quality does she have...

all i can ask is...If i had to meet wih an accident & end up in a respirator with tube feeds to support me wud i like it? do i want to live a life like that...not able to express my emotions nor my pain...do i have to suffer coz my loved ones love me too much that they are blind in seeing me suffer


I really feel sorry for the parents & Pray God wud give them the wisdom to understand & the comfort they deserve

I am so glad that the Judges made the right decision for her

I am happy for the Doctors for being an advocate for her & relieving her of her suffering

basically it is a decision one makes is it quality or quantity of life which counts

Bluelotus
10-08-2004, 10:33 PM
Butterfly don't worry

thank you for explaining the situation to us.

Priyanka
10-09-2004, 01:44 AM
It is some what similar to mercy killing. I completely agree with Bluelotus and Pattus. Ippo etthanaiyo casesla fetus abnormal-nu therinjuavudaneye athai abort pannidarathillaiyaa? Athe maadiri thaan idhuvum. As blues told abnormal fetus are aborted even after 24 weeks. Can we consider it a murder? Definitely not.

Very sorry to say this. We should not be always optimistic. At times we should be practical also. Why unnecessarily torture such a small child if it is not going to survive. I may be wrong but I told just my view.

dinesh
10-09-2004, 01:48 PM
I don't know what is right or wrong here. I firmly believe in the right to life. No one can decide on anyone else can live or not, be it me, you, or a judge. Human beings have a greed to live. that cannot be denied. We see people with so many complications spending huge amounts of money and effort in order to do just one thing. To live.

What we should think about is, whether the pain is a worthwhile price to pay in order to live? I don't think it is something someone else can decide. Because how we value life is just for us. Whether it is practical or not is not a question everyone of us can answer. And it is not for us to answer either, because most of us are not going to be affected by it anyway.

What really saddened me about this entire matter is something that I read in the papers about religious leaders welcoming the judge's decision. I think they have no right to comment on this matter. I also think they should shut up.

anainar
10-09-2004, 05:08 PM
This for sure is a raging debate in every society.( except the ones where human life dont have any value ). Wheher to let the suffereing person hang in there hoping a miracle or put them to sleep. Only he/she can decide whether they consider it pain or want to hang in there. Who knows, in the next one month a magic drug might be invented to accelerate the growth of the child. That is hope and cannot be given away in the name of pain/suffering. If hte parents are not willing it is a different story. When they are willing to hang in there with hope, no government, doctor or judge has the right to tell them what to do.



basically it is a decision one makes is it quality or quantity of life which counts

This keeps changing with time Butterfly. And the benchmarks are different. I was going to a shopping mall. I saw a lady, may be in her 90s, in a wheel chair, with oxygen supply strapped to her chair, breathing from that, but still giving a big smile at her great grand daughter playing in the carousel. She is hardly mobile and is brought in by her family. But her spirit reflects in every one accompanying her. Dont you call that quality? For her family, the mere presence of her in a wheel chair breathing from cylinder is quality enough to keep her alive. The same is true with the parents of the child. No one else has the right to have a say in this. All the rational thinking takes a back seat when it comes to loved ones.

Cheers

Priyanka
10-09-2004, 05:47 PM
What really saddened me about this entire matter is something that I read in the papers about religious leaders welcoming the judge's decision. I think they have no right to comment on this matter. I also think they should shut up.

I absolutely agree with you Dinesh. Religious leaders ellam avanga aattatthai religion-da nirutthikkanum. Indha maadiri vishaiyatthula ellam mookkai nozhaccha mookka odacchukkavendiyathu thaan.


I saw a lady, may be in her 90s, in a wheel chair, with oxygen supply strapped to her chair, breathing from that, but still giving a big smile at her great grand daughter playing in the carousel. She is hardly mobile and is brought in by her family. But her spirit reflects in every one accompanying her. Dont you call that quality?

Neenga sonnatthai ennaala otthukka mudiyaathu anainaar. Vazhndhu mudiccha 90 vayasu kezhaviyaiyum, inimel thaan vazha thodanga pora ponnaiyum eppadi compare panna mudiyum. First of all intha comparison-e enakku correct-a padalai.

Sari intha angle-la yosichu paarunga. Ok. Ethavathu miracle panni antha baby-ai pozhaikka vacchudraanga! It have been told that the child has stopped breathing several times and has serious heart and lungs problem. Everybody know that your brain will be irrepairably damaged when you are not able to breath three minutes. And how about the brain of the baby which has stopped breathing several times. Undoubtedly some damage would have occured in its brain! There are 90% chances for the baby to become mentally retarded. "So what" appadinnu neenga ketkalaam.

Sari parents irukkara varaikkum avanga thannoda kozhandhaiyai gavanicchuppanga. Aana avangalukku appuram? Antha kuzhandhaiyai yaar gavanicchuppaanga? Say these parents delivered the baby when they are 20 years old. Oru manishanoda average life span patthinganna 60 or 70. Appadi pattha antha kuzhandhai 40 vayasu varaaikkum avangalaala gavanicchukka mudiyum. Aana athukkum mela andha kozhandhai vazhnthutta? Athu romba kodumai.

Oru question-ai answer pannunga. Ippo fetus abnormal-nu therinja even after 25 weeks kooda abort pannikkaraanga. Appo "Ungalukku enna urimai irukku intha kuzhandhaiyai abort panna ungalukku enna urimai irukkunnu ketpingala?" Athukum ithukkum onnum periya vidyasam illai. This is my view.

anainar
10-09-2004, 06:07 PM
Dinesh,

I doubt whether one can keep religeon out of this. To, they are also human beings as much as you and me having views on worldly things. While you and I believe in logic, they believe in some thing else. I listen to their views as much as I listen to any one else's. It takes an ugly turn only when it is enforced against the free will. Some sects of Christianity are against abortion while there are thousands of people doing that. So, the religeous leaders are within their rights to make their views public. Whether to take it on face value or not is our decision.

Karthis, I am not comparing 90 year old lady with a still born child. I am talking about the fighting spirit and the choices. For the family of those suffering, the hope is that they might get well and be with them. So, it is better left to the family to decide what to do.

Predicting who will look after the child after the parents die, is hypothetical. One can never predict the future. If you look at that way, what is the gurantee that we will be looked after when we get old? Our children will be busy running their own lives like us and what is the gurantee that they will look after us? Does it mean, we give up hope? No, we hang in their and live the present, fighting. I am borrowing one of the links given by our fellow geethamite Senthilnathan on "Right Now". Live life right now. Dont ruin the present by worrying about the future..

http://www.llangley.com/yoga/wisdom/rightnow%5b2%5d.htm

Cheers

vasan
10-09-2004, 08:26 PM
What really saddened me about this entire matter is something that I read in the papers about religious leaders welcoming the judge's decision. I think they have no right to comment on this matter. I also think they should shut up.


Well, we ought to keep religion out of it, politics out of it, prejudices out of it, ethnic backgrounds out of it.. and what else? Must actually keep the law out of it too. Why the heck the govt or a judge should have a say on whether I should keep my daughter or not? Its NOT a crime or against constitution is it?

Sorry, Dinesh. Its an issue that affects people. And every one has a right to express their opinions, and argue for their beliefs and ask people to follow them. No one has a right to FORCE them to follow, but definitely express their beliefs and opinions. Most certainly.

It is an ethical and moral and a question that downright affects the people. And any decision thats made not respecting everyone's voice is wrong. Laws and constitution is made so as to protect every ones right. And if people believe something in this issue - based on whatever reason, religious, or philosophical or commercial - and want to express their opinions, they ought to be heard.

Vasan

ps: History bears abundant witness to both the positive powers of religious leadership - as well as their destructive powers. Gandhi, King, Tutu, several dozen of the reformers in England, nearly all the founding fathers of US... For that matter every written law of justice has had its foundations in one religion or the other. To set the things write, there are probably as many incidents to quote on the destructive powers of religion - church and its actions during dark period, inquisition, a million holy wars, and so on.. We must listen - for wise counsel from all sides - and learn from everyone. No matter how much we differ from their beliefs.

butterfly
10-09-2004, 08:42 PM
This keeps changing with time Butterfly. And the benchmarks are different. I was going to a shopping mall. I saw a lady, may be in her 90s, in a wheel chair, with oxygen supply strapped to her chair, breathing from that, but still giving a big smile at her great grand daughter playing in the carousel. She is hardly mobile and is brought in by her family. But her spirit reflects in every one accompanying her. Dont you call that quality?For her family, the mere presence of her in a wheel chair breathing from cylinder is quality enough to keep her alive.

anainar,
Quality for whom?..fer her or for her family...& who are the family to decide about her...doesnt she have a own saying...just coz she is dependable does that give away her right to make decision?...in older generation I feel its totally to the individual to make that decision of wat he/she wants or not want...


Lets take this same situation u have posted...this grandma suffering with alzheimers...very pleasantly confused...cant even tell u when she is in pain but just moans ....on oxygen...& totally dependent with cardiac problems...& If her heart stops wud u resucitate her?...remember to think this grandma is over 90 so the pressure u use to resucitate her can break her ribs easily as they are fragile @ that age...& plus putting her on respirator...wat quality does she have?...its true her family will still have her around..but are they willing to stay home &provide care for 24hrs?...most imp of all wud that be wat she wants???


Blues,
Sorryma...for diverting the topic towards geriatrics

butterfly
10-09-2004, 08:48 PM
What really saddened me about this entire matter is something that I read in the papers about religious leaders welcoming the judge's decision. I think they have no right to comment on this matter. I also think they should shut up.



Dinesh,
There are different ppl in this world...& each have their own opinion...lets take wat is good for us & leave the rest....all it matters is the final say as to be by the affected individual...but sadly here its a baby :(

vasan
10-09-2004, 09:00 PM
Quality for whom?..fer her or for her family...& who are the family to decide about her


Pattampoochi..

Let me see if I can answer this for anainar - or let me see what I think is the quality of life..

It first says that living is better than dying. Needless to say, thats the basic argument for living. And it also is the belief that NO person has a right to take his or her life. Infact if a healthy person attempts it, its a crime.

'Quality' of life is the thing that brings joy in that person or some one else, just by the fact that the other person is alive and living. (Economists and Govt planners have another definition, based on money and how well a person can live, but thats for economic planning).. In the case of the example anainar quoted.. Surely before even the person became an invalid person, she did enjoy her life and the company of her children and grand children. Is it such a difficult thing to assume that she would continue to enjoy it even after becoming invalid?

Physical pain and inability to take care of ones ownself does not give any one a right to die. It would still be a 'crime'. So based on that belief, that if a grandma, no matter how much invalid she is, if she is living, and is around, its a quality of life. For example, some one with alzheimers: Sure that person is pleasantly dazed.. Who are we to say she is in pain or she would rather live with it than die? Even if we grant that she has a right to make that decision, how do we know what decision she made? Are we supposed to assume that she would want die?

I think its now legally possible to put down your wishes in such cases of old age - they can instruct the doctors or people not to resuscitate beyond certain time or event. While they are still in full capacity to decide for themselves. Only when they are in no position to decide, then others will have to.

Its kind of complex thingy.. I am neither sure about my own understanding, nor in my ability to express my self clearly.. I apologize if my comments were confusing..

Only thing is.. since its about geriatrics, I couldn't let go.. If I don't speak up for my age group, who else will? :P :P

v-

anainar
10-09-2004, 09:50 PM
Pattampoochi & Blue,

I never intended to take this debate to Geriatrics. I was talking about the value of life and fighting spirit for living it, irrespective of the age. I spoke about that old lady, because when I saw her exactly same line of thoughts went in my mind, till I saw her family.They are all so happy to have her in what ever condition she is at. Whether she herself is in pain, I dont know. But if some one should die just because they are in pain, that is unacceptable. There are painful accidents people go through. When I got tooth ache, I felt like killing myself. So, being in pain cannot be a pre requisite or a reason to die.

We dont look at life through the prism of "Value". We are all valuable today because we are healthy, earning for the country and family. But the day will come when we wont be like what we are. Should we be called "Valueless" at that time? What about all the things we did in the last 60-70 years before becoming so called "invalid"? Life or death cannot be be decided by that or the pain. So, that cannot be a yardstick for life and death.

My point is consistent. The final choice is with the parents/family to decide. No law, religion, arm chair critics or govt can have a say in this. Govt can enact rules on when it cannot be done but should not say when it should be done like this case. That choice should be with the family always.

Cheers

vasan
10-09-2004, 10:08 PM
That choice should be with the family always.


Yes, provided the family has no villains.. :oops:

Have read too many thrillers, where villainous children and grandchildren 'decide' things to usurp the wealth much before their time.. And for some reason, I seem to have lost much trust in humanity to allow blanket statements as above..

:(

v-

Shy
10-09-2004, 10:11 PM
You may or may not have heard of Charlotte Wyatt.
She was born 3 months early, 11 months ago. A premature baby who has not left her incubator since her birth. During her stay at the hospital she has several times stoped breathing and was resucitated. She weighed just a mere pound (abt 500g) at birth and has serious lung and heart problems.
She cannot suck from a bottle and has been fed through a tube for her entire life so far. :(

the doctors decided that the baby should not be resuscitated if she stoped breathing again.
the parents objected. the whole thing went to court.


What do you think?

when should treatment be stopped?

Very sad to hear this.

Court for this matter? Who are they to decide someone's life? It should be the parents who should decide that. Entha ulagathukku aasaiyaa live koduthathu avanga. Athai parika avangalukku kooda urimai kadaiyaathu.. but since its a baby they have a say and that should be respected and accepted

so what if the baby is not normal. How many kids out there is normal, but didnt they have a choice to live, intha kidkku matum appadi enna pavam senchathu? Live is so precious. that too a baby's. If you see anywhere in this world, everyone thrive to live.. appadi irukkum boothu oru pinchu kolanthaiyaa athukku kooda choice tharaama eppadi seirathu romba kodumai.. As others said.. who knows what the future might hold. We cant make that decision right now.

Shy

anainar
10-09-2004, 10:13 PM
Oops!! I stand corrected Vasan teacher. Always does sound sweeping and does not belong there. I meant like, if the doctors give up hope the way in this case, the choice of whether to keep them ticking despite professional advice is with the family always. Not the "decision" to put to sleep forcibly like you said. Since we are talking about this kind of cases where the professional advice is for putting them to sleep, I used the sweeping "always" in this sense.

Cheers

vasan
10-09-2004, 10:19 PM
:sm03: :sm03: :sm03: :sm03:

I agree with what you wrote there, Sir.. :b: I did understand your view point correctly, just so it would be complete, I wrote that.. :P

v-

vasan
10-09-2004, 10:27 PM
Very sad to hear this.

Court for this matter? Who are they to decide someone's life? It should be the parents who should decide that. Entha ulagathukku aasaiyaa live koduthathu avanga. Athai parika avangalukku kooda urimai kadaiyaathu..

Shy

rrr... Yeah.. in some sense.. But the doctor's refuse to treat.. what could any one do? Like the arguments made by everyone, if the parents continue insisting on it, should we leave the baby to suffer - blue & pattampoochi noted down so many complications and pain that baby is going through or will go through.

The damages to baby's life is not simple. Its way too complicated and its not a treatment plan that the docs are refusing.. They are refusing to resuscitate after the baby's breathing stops. Thats all. There is a lot more than merely who is deciding about the baby's life - because the baby is in many senses not living at all. Its sad.. but true.

v-

Shy
10-09-2004, 10:47 PM
Very sad to hear this.

Court for this matter? Who are they to decide someone's life? It should be the parents who should decide that. Entha ulagathukku aasaiyaa live koduthathu avanga. Athai parika avangalukku kooda urimai kadaiyaathu..

Shy

rrr... Yeah.. in some sense.. But the doctor's refuse to treat.. what could any one do? Like the arguments made by everyone, if the parents continue insisting on it, should we leave the baby to suffer - blue & pattampoochi noted down so many complications and pain that baby is going through or will go through.

The damages to baby's life is not simple. Its way too complicated and its not a treatment plan that the docs are refusing.. They are refusing to resuscitate after the baby's breathing stops. Thats all. There is a lot more than merely who is deciding about the baby's life - because the baby is in many senses not living at all. Its sad.. but true.

v-

Then the doctors should be brought to court vasan, because its their duty to do whatever they can as long as the patient and their loved one needs. They cant decide whether to help or not.
they should simply do what they are supposed to.

Its not baby's life, but many people's life are complicated in one way or the other. In many cases, the person involved is allowed to decide, but unfortunately this is a baby. Only their parents can decide. If you remember there was a case here in states few months back, a husband wanting to mercy kill his wife while her parents were against it. She was in a veggie state. Do u say that as living just because her heart beats? In many ways she too was not living. There are many such cases around. Living doesnt mean just the healthy way right?

Shy

Priyanka
10-10-2004, 04:07 AM
Shy and anainar! Naan ketta kelvikku bathil sollunga mothalla. Fetus abnormalnu therinja etthanaiyo per 25 weeks-ku appuram kooda abort pannikkaraanga. Appo "Ungalukku enna urimai irukku andha kozhandhaiyai abort pandrathukku"nu argue pannuveengala! Athukku bathil sollunga!

dinesh
10-10-2004, 11:49 AM
Well, I don't really think the public in general have a right to comment here, let alone the religious dudes. It is a family matter, the parents committed no crime and it should have been their decision. As I explained earlier, the value of life differs considerably, and we really cannot decide how much a life is worth.

Anainar mentioned abortion affecting the public in general too. I don't really see why. It is a woman's problem whether she want to have a kid or not. We are not gonna help her raise it nor make sure the kid will have a decent life. Especially the religious dudes are not going to give a damn about the kid (actually I would be seriously worried if some of these guys started giving a damn about kids). So why do we have to have opinions about abortion at all?

butterfly
10-18-2004, 01:39 AM
Vasan anna,anainar & others,
Sorry for my late reply :pray:

I am not talking about mercykilling here...I am just talking about making the right decision when it comes to our Loved ones...oru example inge solren

A 42 yr old male with diabetes & renal failure...both his kidneys are shutting down...he his on dialysis 3 times a week...he his also an left below knee amputee...now his right leg needs to be amputed coz of a gangrene...he his in a lot of pain so he his highly medicated....coz of the narcotics he gets most of the time he cant answer questions when asked...hence his minimental stated he his cognitively impaired ( cant make decisions )...hence his parents are the legal guardians
for the parents he his the only son...they visit him everyday & night
But everytime u pass him he begs u to stop treatment & let him die...He begs his parents...but they think giving him narcotics & keeping him painfree is important...not realising his kidneys is not able to take the load anymore...& have been aked to stop dialysis by the doctors & the multidisciplinary team many times but parents have refused...Dr's have suggested to just keep him painfree as per his wish & make his last days memorabe...but parents dont seem to understand they want him to go thru surgery & cont dialysis

Do U guys think the parents are right here?

How is it that we trust the Dr's with our illness...but when it comes to our loved ones Y are we blinded?

anainar
10-18-2004, 02:40 AM
Anainar mentioned abortion affecting the public in general too.

I did not say abortion affects the society. I was defending the right to have opinions and freedom to express it. It applies equally to regular dude like us, as well as the religious dudes who dont share our faith. Why should we ask them to shut up? Why should we stop them from talking to like minded people or those who share his view point? Unless it comes to coercion or forcible decision making, they are well with in their rights. That is why we have a legal system/constitution in place to differentiate individuals freedom and collective responsibility. If I argued that abortion has to be made illegal, I am treading on the rights of the women to make her decision.

Pattams, my argument is not for specific cases. In generality, the decision for euthnasia lies with the family. One cannot take the decsion himself which will amount to suicide, which is illegal and that is why doctors were asking the patient's family's consent. In the case of this premature baby, the parents are willing to take their chances hoping for a miracle. The refusal of the doctors to treat the patient is a blatant violation of their code of conduct.

There have been cases where doctors did not accept patients who they thought dont stand a chance of survival and refused to treat them. So, if a patient/his family wants treatment, it is the duty of the doctor to give it if he is competent to provide that. Refusing to do that should be looked at legally and those doctors need to be punished. That is what I am saying.

I have no doubt that specific cases might be exceptions. But it should be guided by general principles and not by arbitrary decisions of individuals.

Cheers

Priyanka
10-18-2004, 04:00 AM
Appuram andha kuzhandhaikku enna aacchupa! Any news?

Enakku enna soldrathunne theriyalai. Ena poruttha varaikkum rendu side-laium gnyayam irukkaraa maadiri thaan thonudhu.

Bluelotus
10-18-2004, 12:52 PM
Then the doctors should be brought to court vasan, because its their duty to do whatever they can as long as the patient and their loved one needs. They cant decide whether to help or not.
they should simply do what they are supposed to

hmm yeah allright ...but can the National Health Service (NHS) afford it?
doctors amazingly would love to treat and cure all their patients

but everything has a price....in the USA the patient pays...but in the UK it's the NHS....and we barely have enough bed as it is ... :( and a baby in an incubator cost a lot of money too)

money which could be spent on 10 different patients as opposed to one baby

it's disgusting ...but hey everything that the doctors do now days must be thought out carefully...they are no longer mere doctors..but must be accountants and administrators too

and they must make these choices everyday every minute...

money rules akka :(

akka you mis-understood....if the baby is strong enough she will live....simply if she stops breathing again she won't be resucitated. They are not killing her.
a baby who has spend abt a year in an incubator....how long would you like to keep her in there? :?

trully doctors contrary tp popular beliefs do not wish to kill their patients...



------------------------------------

say peeps?
could we have a separate thread for Euthanesia...and keep this one for premature babies only :think:


cos that topic is far more complex...or so I believe

dinesh
10-18-2004, 01:03 PM
It applies equally to regular dude like us, as well as the religious dudes who dont share our faith. Why should we ask them to shut up? Why should we stop them from talking to like minded people or those who share his view point?

The difference between me talking and the religious dudes talking is that I don't have a number of vulnerable people listening to every word I utter and conform to what I say. When you are in a position where people will follow your words without reason, the comments you make can affect numerous lives.

Furthermore, when I make my comment it is clearly understood, and I make an effort to underline that, those are just my views. No one is going to follow them unless they see a good reason to do so. But, when these religious dudes utter some nonsense, their intention is to make the people follow it, and people do follow it, regardless of any lack of justification. That's why I say they should shut up. If they follow up their comments with, "we are not forcing anyone to listen to us" bit, then it is a different story. But the entire point of any religious organisation opening its mouth is to spread propaganda.