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coolian
01-20-2005, 05:47 PM
Everything stated below is my view only and you do not have to agree with them - obviously. For the easily offended - stop reading now.

Ok, I've been thinking about this for a long time. A really long time. It distresses me that Hindus, on the whole, are a passive and apathetic lot. I've lived in quite a few countries outside India and the situation "out there" is appalling. I'd go as far as to say that most Hindus are Hindus just by name and heritage, nothing else. I've heard comments like "Oh, I only don't eat beef when my mom is around" and "Deepavali? It's a holiday! Time to paaaaaaarty!!" so many times that it makes my skin crawl. Most of the Hindus simply don't even know what to believe in. So many Hindus these days still do not realize that there is only one God - everything else is but a manifestation. Nobody bothers to read scriptures like the Bhagavad Gita. (Most) Hindus don't even pray regularly. Those who do, don't even know what the prayers mean (since most mantrams are in Sanskrit) and simply recite them off the top of their heads. Hindu parents do not bother inculcating in their children Hindu values. I see the Krishnas calling themselves "Kris". Hindu girls don't wear pottus these days. It's been an incredibly long time since I saw anyone wearing naamam or vibhuthi. Nobody even knows the purpose of wearing vibhuthi. I've seen so many Hindus working in college cafeterias, flipping burgers and making pepperoni pizzas, just to earn a few bucks. They're cooking up cows for "other" people, even though cows are sacred and respected creatures. When I ask them why they're doing what they do, they retort, "Dude, I ain't eating beef...what's the big deal?" Why do we give up our values so readily? Why doesn't anyone care anymore???

- An agitated Coolian

Bluelotus
01-20-2005, 06:42 PM
isn't this all about the outward expression of religion that you're bemoaning?

does it all matter if you have faith in the divine...it rather seems to me that you're worried about secondary characteristics of religion and not the primary ones...

of course Hinduism is a monotheist religion ...the use of various ishta Devas is to simply make it easier for the devotee to commune with the divine

however I do agree that religious education is simply lacking in most Hindu households.
Unless the child has a natural desire and curiosity in its religion the ones born or brought up in foreign lands simply do not know anything.
I know for instance that Christian churches arrange sunday school, Mosques too have their own religious lessons for children, same goes for Synagogues, and the Jain community too.
It would be nice if Shaiva Temples could organise something for our children too.



( :evil: I know ppl who go to Temples to check out the opposite gender :evil: :evil: sickening :snooty: )


anyway...

blue.

coolian
01-20-2005, 06:58 PM
I don't really understand what you mean by "secondary characteristics". This rant isn't about the "outward expression of religion" at all. The reason I brought that up is because 90% of the people who're like that (pottu-less, not visiting temples etc) are those who don't know anything about Hinduism. An example: many Hindus - at least the ones I've come across - don't realize we don't pray to the statue of Krishna, we pray through it. It is just the lack of interest that concerns me. We Hindus just shy away from addressing this problem. It bugs me. It kills me.

Bluelotus
01-20-2005, 07:35 PM
hmmm ...didn't know that mate....I thought ppl actually got the point that you don't pray to an idol but use the idol to commune with the divine..

don't kill yourself over it...but try to enlighten them in a quiet manner perhaps? :think:

(btw...so do you like wear pottu vibhuthi etc everywhere? :think: just curious...pottu and vibuthi ain't just for the girls matey )

Priyanka
01-20-2005, 07:44 PM
To be frank, I don't believe in pottu, viputhi, thali sentiment and all sorts of things. As far as I am concerned all these are mere beliefs. It has nothing to do our reall life. If you have real bhakthi in your heart, it is enough.

Coming to the cooking of cow, Hinduism tells that each and every living being is sacred, pig, crow,parrot, entha animal-a edutthundaalum athai kadavuloda sambandha padutthiyirukkaanga. Appadi partha a true Hindu should not eat any meat.

coolian
01-20-2005, 07:50 PM
Pottus are for guys? Never knew that! Well, I wear vibhuthi/naamam probably 50% of the time. I used to wear it everyday in high school but I did (and do) it for my personal satisfaction only - not to show anyone who I am and all that stuff. Nowadays, I wear it mainly during the evening or morning, when I'm at home - it wears out pretty quick when I go out!!

coolian
01-20-2005, 07:52 PM
Agreed, Priyanka. That's what I mean. As long as people know why they do what they do, it's fine. No point taking anything at face-value...

silican
01-20-2005, 08:01 PM
Coolian, I do wear vibuthi whenever I start from home. But before I reach the bus stop, my hand rubs it off automatically. The reason is, I dont want to show out my religion. I dont want anyone to judge/characterize/group/identify me based on my religion.."oh!. that hindu guy.." Come on man, let my character talk for me; let my education/job skills talk for me; not some religion or a caste.

As the famous saying goes, 'Religions are like under garments. Ofcourse they are necessary for anyone, but when you show it out, its disgusting'. That is my ideology abut religions too.

Eating beef or pork is upto a person's taste. I am a vegetarian. I dont eat chicken, fish or beef cos I dont feel like eating them. Wearing bindhi is again a girl's wish. I dont see any point calling a religion to draw a line of code and conduct. Didn't kannapppa Nayanaar eat/present the lord with flesh ?? So you mean to say he isnt a Hindu ?

There are millions to worry about than these small issues like religion.
- Silican

Priyanka
01-20-2005, 08:14 PM
Coolian, I do wear vibuthi whenever I start from home. But before I reach the bus stop, my hand rubs it off automatically. The reason is, I dont want to show out my religion. I dont want anyone to judge/characterize/group/identify me based on my religion.."oh!. that hindu guy.." Come on man, let my character talk for me; let my education/job skills talk for me; not some religion or a caste.

என்ன சிலிக்ஸ். இப்படி புல்லரிக்க வைக்கறீங்க . சொரிஞ்சு சொரிஞ்சு கையெல்லாம் காயமாயிடுc ு. :lol: (அச்சச்சோ! சும்மா பகிடி பகிடி. :wink: )

நீங்க சொல்றது உண்மை தான் சிலிக்கன். இந்த மாதிரி மென்டலிட்ய ் எல்லாருக்க ும் வந்துட்ட, நாட்டுல இனக் கலவரம், மதக் கலவரம் எதுவுமெ நடக்காது. Well said. :clap:

anainar
01-20-2005, 08:19 PM
Coolian,

You need to understand two things here. One is believing in some thing. The other thing is showing to outside world what you believe in. Outword expressions by wearing bindhi, vibuthi outside our home is a personal choice. I for one wear pottu and vibuthi when I pray in the morning. I dont rub it off. My belief is I am just being myself. My office it was a point of discussion once when they drew parallels to Ash Friday of Christianity. But that is ok. Some body may not want to express this outwardly. That in no way dilutes their belief. That is what religion is about. Belief.

About education, yes, I agree. We need to pass on our beliefs to our children. For me my grand mother told stories and literature of Mahabaratha/Ramayana and the morals. I read myself books on Tamil theology. I may have a tough time transferring them to my son 100%. We show them a direction and they pick up from there if it interests them.

Like evolution, Religion and Beliefs also change with time. That does not mean the religions lost their part in the society or get neglected just because tradition is not followed. So, take it easy dude. Hinduism is not going any where just because the women dont wear pottu or men dont wear vibuthi. It has stayed for more than 5000 years and will stay longer too. Not because it is taught religiously by every one involved, more so because of choice. That is the greatest part.

Cheers

coolian
01-20-2005, 08:59 PM
I guess I've been grossly misunderstood. Simply wearing vibhuthi or pottu does not mean one becomes more religious - that is hardly my point. Perhaps I should have phrased it right. I just used it as an example - that's all. My main - and only - point was that Hindus today do not really understand Hindu philosophies. And they don't even bother.

Silican, so you base what you do on what others think? You do not wear vibhuthi outside because you're afraid you'll be branded as "that Hindu guy"? I'm shocked. Wearing vibhuthi is not to show anyone who you are or what you represent. It's to remind yourself that you will be no more than that ash one day. I hate to do this, but I've to bring it up. Muslim women wear the hijab for certain reasons - they do not care what anyone else thinks about it, because it is something they strongly believe in and that is something I truly respect and admire. They do not care if someone thinks of them as "oh those muslim women..." - why? Because that is NOT the point of wearing a hijab in the first place! Of course, whether or not you want to wear vibhuthi is your own option, but you had stated that you do not wear it for fear of being associated with your religion - is your religion something that you have to hide? That you have to be ashamed of? I'm sorry, but I'm stunned.

I did not say anything about eating meat - I specifically singled beef out. I'm a complete vegetarian - mainly for spiritual reasons which I think I explained in the other thread. Go ahead and eat anything you want but refrain from eating cows (if you are a Hindu). Why? Because God said so.

Bluelotus
01-20-2005, 09:41 PM
I'm sorry but eevn after reading all your posts I still believe that you put far too much emphasis on secondary characteristics of a faith rather than on the primary ones.

Basically all that you point out are simply outward expression of a faith, I do agree that they have been thought up by the elders for a reason. The reason being to focus our mind on our faith. However I hold the personal belief that no-one and I do mean no-one including in here members of all faiths/sects/cults/etc should outwardly display their "religion"
In this I do quite frankly applaud the French for their laicity.

We are all different, however it doesn't mean that it should be in other ppl's face!

Hinduism to me is one of the few religions which allows one to practise in whatever way they choose....of course having had no formal Hindu-Religious education this may be my very own erronous belief ...but so be it!

You know what....I always re-apply moisturiser before leaving home for the simple and bigotted purpose of wiping off the vibhuthi...and I don't feel guilty...so sue me :Ksp:

vibuthi I understand, kumkum, sandalwood paste too.
but pottu for women...I don't understand the "religious" significance...I thought it was just a cultural one :?

oh God said so, huh?
( :ee: I wish Dinesh was here :ee: )
Eating meat, eating cattle, eating fish, eating egg!!
are all personal choices
I do agree that abstaining from eating cattle meat is a byword for hinduism. (and as far as I know hindus don't)

but it doesn't mean that you should stigmatise those who do it...

maybe I am a product of my environment and I value tolerance over perfect religious practices...or whatever...but so what!

coolian
01-20-2005, 09:51 PM
Hardly the case. The only point in this thread is that (most) Hindus do not understand Hindu principles. OF COURSE, you should pray the way you choose. Whether you wear vibhuthi or not - that is your choice. I did not say one HAS to wear it. You've gotten me completely wrong. Regarding meat - again, you've got me wrong. I said go ahead and eat whatever you want, but if you're a hindu, do not eat beef. As for Dinesh being here, I welcome him to this thread but then again, that's not the point of this particular topic is it?

Let me reiterate for the billionth time - my point is, Hindus today have no interest in knowing more about their religion.

Bluelotus
01-20-2005, 10:18 PM
just because we're not raging fundamentalist doesn't mean that we (as in most hindus) are not interested in our own religion...
in fact despite the lack of raging fundamentalism seen in other religions ..I for one strongly believe that young hindus nowdays are becoming more ans more interested in their religions...

yet I can only comment on what I see in my own little pond..not what takes place in the big ocean far away...

another problem ...that I wish to highlight which to you may seem a lot of non-sense but certainly is a problem for myself and others like me
is the lack of books which make hinduism more understandable and graspable
I mean ...go visit waterstones...you get a couple really old translations of the Mahabaratha and some book written by a European with a Christian view on Hinduism
hardly the stuff to get to know your religion better



somehow it all seems pointless talking abt it...I wonder why...

coolian
01-20-2005, 10:33 PM
No, one does not have to be a raging fundamentalist to take more interest in one's religion. With respect to the number of books on Hinduism, you are right. There're quite a number of readable books on the subject, but not as many as those on Islam and Christianity, for instance. This fact again leads us to the same point I've been trying to say - there're not that many books on Hinduism etc because the demand (to read) is not all that high. And I certainly do not think it is pointless talking about it - the more we talk about it, the more people sit up and notice it. And that is what we want!

anainar
01-20-2005, 10:42 PM
Hindus do not understand Hindu principles.

What do you mean by this? We all follow the principles inculcated in us in one way or the other. Do you mean to say knowing Bhagwad Geeta is knowing the principles? I never read Gita till I was in college. Even now I would not have read the entire Gita.

Hinduism is so pluralistic that it does not matter whether you know Gita or not, whether you worship Murugan or Vishnu or Rama. Compassion for other living beings is built in Hinduism. But the same Hinduism also tolerates meat eating. The prinicples and interpretations vary with what you read and who you follow. And it covers a whole gamut of things that we come across.

We rever trees, rivers which are basically life preserving ecologies. We honour the ஐம்பூதங்கள ் for preserving life. We honor four persons who bring value in our life.( maatha, pitha, guru, theivam ). We worship God of destruction too, learning to take loss of life in stride and get on with life. More than anything Tolerance is the watchword for Hinduism. It is about inclusion and not exclusion. Just because one does not know the intricacies of Gita/Vedas he/she cannot be categorised as not knowing the principles of Hinduism.

I perfectly agree with Silix's predicament. What is there to be shocked? He does not want to display his faith publicly. You may differ in that aspect, but why should you get shocked? Or conclude that he does stand for what he believes in? Standing for what we believe in does not depend on just display. If he takes his time to be a good human being, doing his job without worrying about his consequences, he does stand for what he believes in. Not by wearing vibuthi or pottu.

Cheers

coolian
01-20-2005, 10:56 PM
What do you mean by this? We all follow the principles inculcated in us in one way or the other. Do you mean to say knowing Bhagwad Geeta is knowing the principles? I never read Gita till I was in college. Even now I would not have read the entire Gita.
I was referring to most of the Hindus I know. Knowing the Gita is a start to understanding Hindu principles. The Gita is the dialogue between Arjuna and Krishna (which you obviously know) and in it Krishna explains what He believes we as Hindus should do. So by reading/understanding the Gita, one would get a much stronger grasp of Hinduism.


Hinduism is so pluralistic that it does not matter whether you know Gita or not, whether you worship Murugan or Vishnu or Rama. Compassion for other living beings is built in Hinduism. But the same Hinduism also tolerates meat eating. The prinicples and interpretations vary with what you read and who you follow. And it covers a whole gamut of things that we come across. Agreed. I did not say that one HAS to read the Gita to understand Hinduism. There're numerous ways to do that - reading the Gita is one of the easier ways, in my opinion.


I perfectly agree with Silix's predicament. What is there to be shocked? He does not want to display his faith publicly. You may differ in that aspect, but why should you get shocked? Or conclude that he does stand for what he believes in? Standing for what we believe in does not depend on just display. If he takes his time to be a good human being, doing his job without worrying about his consequences, he does stand for what he believes in. Not by wearing vibuthi or pottu.
Dude, I've said this several times, and I'm saying it again. It does NOT matter whether you wear vibhuthi or not. That is HARDLY the question. Silican said that he would not wear the vibhuthi before others for fear of being branded as "that hindu guy". That is what shocked me - whether or not he wears the vibhuthi, I do not care. But the reason he says he doesn't wear one is what shocked me. Of course, to each his own.

silican
01-20-2005, 11:34 PM
Dude, I've said this several times, and I'm saying it again. It does NOT matter whether you wear vibhuthi or not. That is HARDLY the question. Silican said that he would not wear the vibhuthi before others for fear of being branded as "that hindu guy". That is what shocked me - whether or not he wears the vibhuthi, I do not care. But the reason he says he doesn't wear one is what shocked me. Of course, to each his own.
My parents taught me to put Vibuthi while praying and I am continuing to do that as a obedient son. I dont care what others think about me if I wear vibuthi.
Again let me reinstate, I never said Im afraid and I am not afraid. Why should I be ??
I do know and understand the significance of Vibuthi. But I also know the difference between Significance and Importance. Vibuthi shouldnt be some criteria to define me. Vibuti/Naamam or any religious symbol, for that matter.

There is nothing to be stunned or shocked. There is a distinct difference between Religion developing culture-good nature in an individual and individuals developing religions. I for one prefer to remain in the first lot. If it helps you, I don't buy the theory of "active/passive Hindus".

- Silican

PS: Kindly avoid 'bold'ing single words in the posts. It kinda sounds harsh. :)

prasan8181
01-20-2005, 11:45 PM
Wearing vibhuthi is not to show anyone who you are or what you represent. It's to remind yourself that you will be no more than that ash one day.

Dude! Everyone knows that! Do you mean to say, people dont believe they will die one day? Ofcourse, I know what you mean. Vibuthi was recommended to remind you of your ego, but that is only a supervicial reason. It is actually scientific, it relates to yogam, and energy transfer, and radiation. Pure science, but in a form nobody understands these days.


Go ahead and eat anything you want but refrain from eating cows (if you are a Hindu). Why? Because God said so.

To you? He did not say so to me! Hey Geeth fellows, did God say so to any of you? Did any sacred literature says you should not eat only cows? Come on. If God said it, to whom did he say it!

prasan8181
01-20-2005, 11:48 PM
maybe I am a product of my environment and I value tolerance over perfect religious practices...or whatever...but so what!

Be an atheist! But God loves you anyway. Period.

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 12:01 AM
another problem ...that I wish to highlight which to you may seem a lot of non-sense but certainly is a problem for myself and others like me
is the lack of books which make hinduism more understandable and graspable
I mean ...go visit waterstones...you get a couple really old translations of the Mahabaratha and some book written by a European with a Christian view on Hinduism
hardly the stuff to get to know your religion better


Blue! Knowing it by reading it is impossible. Religion cannot be learned from books! One way to do it is read vedas. But it is so hard that way, and not everyone is blessed to take that route. Another way is through a Guru. A good Guru knows to guide you along the right path. But finding a Guru is very hard. Infact you cannot find a Guru, but you will get to him when you are prepared for the journey, whatever that means. Third way is bakthi.

Come on, this is all said in Bhagavad Gita.

I can also talk about forms of bakthi. Bakthi is the easiest route to understand religion. Infact, it is erroneous to talk about understanding religion. You just feel it.

Right, different forms of Bakthi. You know, Hinduism is the most scientific religion. It also tell you some psychology. There are different ways by which you can feel God. Take for example Radha and Krishna. Radha looked at the Lord as her lover. Take for example Arjuna and Krishna. Arjuna looked at the Lord as his friend. Take for example Rama and Baratha. Baratha looked at the lord as his brother. Take for example Ravana and Rama. Ravana looked at the God as his enemy. Have you ever wondered how much the same it is, hating and loving?

It is all there in the stories. You can relate to God in whatever way you want, you can choose him in whatever form you want. This is purely psychological. That is why you have so different forms of God. No other religion has it!

Two, the whole thing is purely scientific. The sitting posture of the statues of Lords are all purely scientific. Infact, sometimes i have even wondered if the idol acts as an antenna, receiving sound vibrations and processing it and reflecting it in a form which does us good. It is just that we dont have enough knowledge to understand it all.

The best thing we can do is, follow the way which sages have shown us.

So much for this post. I have not finished yet. I dont know how i missed the thread, but i have got to read a few more posts and hopefully, a few more posts will follow.

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 12:03 AM
And I certainly do not think it is pointless talking about it - the more we talk about it, the more people sit up and notice it. And that is what we want!

You want to preach? Haha. What do you know to preach?

valluvan
01-21-2005, 12:07 AM
What do you mean by this? We all follow the principles inculcated in us in one way or the other. Do you mean to say knowing Bhagwad Geeta is knowing the principles? I never read Gita till I was in college. Even now I would not have read the entire Gita.
I was referring to most of the Hindus I know. Knowing the Gita is a start to understanding Hindu principles. The Gita is the dialogue between Arjuna and Krishna (which you obviously know) and in it Krishna explains what He believes we as Hindus should do. So by reading/understanding the Gita, one would get a much stronger grasp of Hinduism.


Hinduism is so pluralistic that it does not matter whether you know Gita or not, whether you worship Murugan or Vishnu or Rama. Compassion for other living beings is built in Hinduism. But the same Hinduism also tolerates meat eating. The prinicples and interpretations vary with what you read and who you follow. And it covers a whole gamut of things that we come across. Agreed. I did not say that one HAS to read the Gita to understand Hinduism. There're numerous ways to do that - reading the Gita is one of the easier ways, in my opinion.


I perfectly agree with Silix's predicament. What is there to be shocked? He does not want to display his faith publicly. You may differ in that aspect, but why should you get shocked? Or conclude that he does stand for what he believes in? Standing for what we believe in does not depend on just display. If he takes his time to be a good human being, doing his job without worrying about his consequences, he does stand for what he believes in. Not by wearing vibuthi or pottu.
Dude, I've said this several times, and I'm saying it again. It does NOT matter whether you wear vibhuthi or not. That is HARDLY the question. Silican said that he would not wear the vibhuthi before others for fear of being branded as "that hindu guy". That is what shocked me - whether or not he wears the vibhuthi, I do not care. But the reason he says he doesn't wear one is what shocked me. Of course, to each his own.


What Silican would have meant is in a common place like office, nobody wants to identify by their religion either in abroad or even in India.............As a good son to your parent, you can wear vibuthi/namam, but as a good employee to an organisation, you shouldn't wear them.

That is quite normal........whether wearing vibuti or namam would help your career or not..... That doesn't a matter!!!!!!!!!!

Ok.....boss......I can count number of gods in other religions except Hindu religion......... Can you give the total number of gods/ goddess in Hindu religion........... Everybody are having their own god/ goddess.......No elders are teaching about hindu religion.......Nobody are there in hindu religion to organise the religion....spritually.

In this context, as you said in your first mail........if Hindu youths are saying that they aren't eating non-veg and only working for few bugs, then really hats off to the young generation!!!!!!!
who are following atleast this habbit for their religion, for which there is no guidance.

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 12:10 AM
Hinduism is so pluralistic that it does not matter whether you know Gita or not, whether you worship Murugan or Vishnu or Rama. Compassion for other living beings is built in Hinduism. But the same Hinduism also tolerates meat eating. The prinicples and interpretations vary with what you read and who you follow. And it covers a whole gamut of things that we come across.

We rever trees, rivers which are basically life preserving ecologies. We honour the ஐம்பூதங்கள ் for preserving life. We honor four persons who bring value in our life.( maatha, pitha, guru, theivam ). We worship God of destruction too, learning to take loss of life in stride and get on with life. More than anything Tolerance is the watchword for Hinduism. It is about inclusion and not exclusion. Just because one does not know the intricacies of Gita/Vedas he/she cannot be categorised as not knowing the principles of Hinduism.

I perfectly agree with Silix's predicament. What is there to be shocked? He does not want to display his faith publicly. You may differ in that aspect, but why should you get shocked? Or conclude that he does stand for what he believes in? Standing for what we believe in does not depend on just display. If he takes his time to be a good human being, doing his job without worrying about his consequences, he does stand for what he believes in. Not by wearing vibuthi or pottu.


This is all very superficial anainar. Ask yourself this simple question. How close do you think you are to God? How do you answer that? Simple. Just look at what is happening to you in your life. Just keep observing... and you will see that everything happens by a design, you will see that nothing is good or bad, you will see that irrespective of what happens there is always an inner peace with you, an emptiness in you which you can always feel provided you are prepared. And then, you will see that when you pray, your prayers do get answered. Not in the form of getting what you need, but in a form that you will just realize.

Ah, i have not explained it at all. I feel His presence around me, in me. I think everyone can feel it, just that they have to get themselves ready.

Well, but it all starts with faith. Faith prepares you.

Enough.

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 12:14 AM
Well, my last post. To Mr. Coolian.

How about starting a thread Mr. Coolian, and why not write about the pricinciples of Hinduism that you seem to like so much? I promise i will read and comment.

Hmm. Guys, if the remarks above are a bit pungent... what can i say? I can comment only that way. I have no intention to hurt anyone here. But an argument is an argument.

Prasanna.

silican
01-21-2005, 12:19 AM
Hmm. Guys, if the remarks above are a bit pungent... what can i say? I can comment only that way. I have no intention to hurt anyone here. But an argument is an argument.

Prasanna.

Word. :b:

coolian
01-21-2005, 12:27 AM
PS: Kindly avoid 'bold'ing single words in the posts. It kinda sounds harsh.
Ah, say that to Priyam2004 then. I bold words for emphasis. That's how I write in forums, and I'm not going to change that.


To you? He did not say so to me! Hey Geeth fellows, did God say so to any of you? Did any sacred literature says you should not eat only cows? Come on. If God said it, to whom did he say it!
Read 9.4.64 from the Rig Veda and 1.19.65 from Vishnu Purana.


You want to preach? Haha. What do you know to preach?
I want to preach? And how did you arrive at that conclusion, smart guy? By "talk about it" I meant "discuss".

vasan
01-21-2005, 01:09 AM
Silican,

Don't put in bold fonts only small sentences.. they kindaa make it harsh.. :P :P (what can I say, some times you are the pigeon, and some times you are the statue.. :P )..

kidding, silix..

v-

------------------------------------------------------

Two things made me sit up and read all the posts twice.. :oops: First, the passion with which each person is arguing.. Seems like Coolian's point is actually wrong, at least so far as people in Geetham are concerned: Folks are NOT passive, indeed they are quite passionate.. :b:

Secondly, having grown up in India and seen people practicing hinduism in several forms, the way some 'ideas' about hinduism written here sounds completely different (or hyperbolic or wrong? :think: ).... Let me explain why I think so...

To begin from the beginning, I am a christian, and do not have any foundations or knowledge of hinduism - beyond what I have seen in others lives, read from books (several versions of mahabharata and ramayana in tamil and english, some booklets on saiva siddhanta in tamil, Gita in english and tamil once, and some other assorted writings on spirituality from magazines), Vaariyaar's speaches and other speakers!

I live in a town just about 15 miles off of a city in TN, and it has about 200 000 people. There is no muslim family. No jainists, no buddhists, and only 4 or 5 christian families, including my own. I studied in a govt school, and all my friends are hindus. Every morning, we walk to school, and right along the path, there is a lovely Mariamman Kovil, and every one of my classmates (leaving their school books and sandols in my custody) run in, make a small prayer, and come back and we walk to school.

NOT one of them is a VEGETARIAN.

MORE than 20 % of them belong to 'lower castes' and I know personally they eat beef.

NOT one of them knew mantras. No one in their families either.

NO one knows a word of sanskrit.

Only knowledge they know about Gita and Ramayana and Mahabharata came from watching TV or movies. (Beeing a book worm, I was the one of the very few dudes who has/had read some of these, and I wasn't even a hindu!).

Most of their sisters (and moms) on every friday was their hair, keep flowers, come to kovil, and pray. Only puja they know is their own prayer. Friday is just a day for women to pray.

The only hindu customs they know is given through traditions. Every home celebrates deepavali and pongal, and our very own Mariamman festival (end of panguni, sometime right after final exams)..

Each of them is pious in their own way. Kind and polite and nice in their own way. (Not that there were no villains or drunks or wifebeaters or such, but those who feared God, any GOD, were all invariably kind in some measure!)...

BTW, I have seen the same a million more times in the city, in Madras and in Bangalore (and a bit in Kerala!). Its not random small choice, but lot more than that..

So when Priyanka writes like this:


Coming to the cooking of cow, Hinduism tells that each and every living being is sacred, pig, crow,parrot, entha animal-a edutthundaalum athai kadavuloda sambandha padutthiyirukkaanga. Appadi partha a true Hindu should not eat any meat.

Just what are you talking about? Except for my brahmin friends and a few more 'upper caste' friends NO hindu friend of mine equates vegetarianism with hinduism. NOT one.

More over there are tons of evidence, historic, and linguistic to show this is the fact for ages. You know how many tamil literature talks about nonveg food? Even valluvar writes (against it, ofcourse, but still, the practice is so prevalent that he wrote!!).. Among the tamil bhakhti literature (puranams) Sivaperuman was once born in a fishing village. Next time when you see some one enjoying salmon you might want to think about it.. :P And as Silican so well pointed out, there is nandhanar, who not only fed Sivaperumaan with meat, he actually tasted, chewed, and thus picked the best tasting food to offered to God. And he is one of the several saints of hinduism as practiced in Tamil Nadu.

And Coolian says:

Go ahead and eat anything you want but refrain from eating cows (if you are a Hindu). Why? Because God said so.

I have to disagree with you, coolian. There are about 20 % of 'low caste' hindus in India, and most eat beef. Their GOD did not tell them to abstain. Besides, I know and have witnessed people sacrificing animals, chicken and goat and even bulls for Gods. Come to the shores of Cauvery river for Adiperukku.. Every one goes and dips in the river, and make pongal and curry (not curried curry, but meat!).. And about a few hundered thousand of then gather in Mettur (near the dam) alone. The kind of hinduism you speak about, is NOT what I have seen. And its not that these people are unaware (they surely are unaware of what you call as hinduism), because after the meal several cultural programs include recitation of old folklore, and paattu and kooththu... (BTW, did you know that the last day of pongal is known as Kari Naal? Meaning a day to feast (especially eating meat?!).. Kanum pongal is a name known only in the last 20 years or so.. Valluvar thinam is since the dravidian parties recognized it as such... but every where in my district its called as kaRi naal.. Every calender would call it only as such.. Its the day we eat meat, and go to indian style rodeo.. :wink: )

Either you call then non-hindus, or less or you are talking about something beyond me..

I find it easier to accept Anainar's statements and Silican's. Practices being different from person to person and family to family for whatever reason, and yet all being hindus.


It is about inclusion and not exclusion. Just because one does not know the intricacies of Gita/Vedas he/she cannot be categorised as not knowing the principles of Hinduism.

This is the kind of hinduism I have seen.. and I think is being practiced by multitudes in India.

Anyways... from what I have seen I could write only as much. And inspite of Blue saying that no one preaches Hinduism, I would like to say, no.. Every year, during mariamman festival in my hometown, we invite speakers (from vaariyaar to local tamil vaaththiyaar) and all of them come preaching, and teaching and encouraging people about faith. The forms of proselytizing might be different, but individuals can still learn from listening to people talking about God in public forum. I did. My memories of listening to Vaariyar is still vivid, and at times the jokes he said, and stories he spoke brings warm memories... If you had not listened to him (or few more that I know off), you surely missed something, in my opinion.. :sm03:

Talk, speak, educate, learn, listen, and understand... :sm03:

Vasan

vasan
01-21-2005, 01:10 AM
repeats.. :(

coolian
01-21-2005, 01:18 AM
Thanks for the loooooooooong post. Vasan, I did not say that they cannot/should not eat meat. If their survival depends on it, by all means. But eating beef is a completely different matter, for reasons I believe I've stated in the vegetarian thread. Eating beef is not akin to eating other kinds of meat.

Anyway as much as I'd love to continue this discussion through the night, my (really boring) research beckons...and attend to it, I must...

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 01:26 AM
Read 9.4.64 from the Rig Veda and 1.19.65 from Vishnu Purana.

Come on, let us get this clear! Did it say in 9.4.64 of Rig Veda that you can eat any other creatures? Does Vishnu Purana says that you can eat any other creatures? Well, they all may say that cow is sacred, it serves as a host to lot of Gods, true... it is also scientific. Dont you see that the uterus shape is same as the shape of the cows face? Well, let science be apart.

But do pray tell me Mr. Cools. Does any of those you had cited says that you can kill and eat another living creature. Tell me! If they say, i will burn them!


I want to preach? And how did you arrive at that conclusion, smart guy? By "talk about it" I meant "discuss".

No point in doing that. Nothing will be gained out of it. A lot of philosophers have tried and failed. Read Imanuel Kant, Russel and dot dot dot. There have been wiser heads talking about God's existence. Some nuts even tried to prove it logically, i mean mathematically.

No point in forcing things on others Cools. God was seen with naked eyes during Mahabaratha period. Why does not that happen now? Times have changed. In this period, ways of Mahabaratha period does not suit well. There are short cuts to feel God now. Shortcuts! God, what am i ranting! ;)

vasan
01-21-2005, 01:31 AM
Shortcuts! God, what am i ranting!

:? :? :?

Man.. sounds much too much like Steppenwolf... :P :P :P

Sorry..

v-

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 01:36 AM
More over there are tons of evidence, historic, and linguistic to show this is the fact for ages. You know how many tamil literature talks about nonveg food? Even valluvar writes (against it, ofcourse, but still, the practice is so prevalent that he wrote!!).. Among the tamil bhakhti literature (puranams) Sivaperuman was once born in a fishing village. Next time when you see some one enjoying salmon you might want to think about it.. Razz And as Silican so well pointed out, there is nandhanar, who not only fed Sivaperumaan with meat, he actually tasted, chewed, and thus picked the best tasting food to offered to God. And he is one of the several saints of hinduism as practiced in Tamil Nadu.

Good point Vasan. Non-vegetarianism does not equate to Hinduism. But hinduism does not support non-vegetarianism. THat, is the point.

Read the Nandanar story again. He was not a saint initially. He was a non-vegetarian. But once he became a saint, he abstained from eating non-vegetarian foods. Why should that be so? Because vegetarian foods tame your mind better and keeps you more at peace. Science again. Doctors say the same today.

There are a lot of facets of Hinduism Vasan. It just says that God loves people anyway, regardless of people being cruel, non-vegeratian, or whatever. But ones they reform themselves, they abstain from all those. That is the moral of the story.

Hm. I wonder how the name Vasan could be christian. Is that not your real name? Dont you people like your real names?

Bluelotus
01-21-2005, 01:38 AM
vasan thattha that was a great post.

actually thattha I was only refering to my peculiar situation, and I must add that nowdays our saiva temple organisations are begining to get together and organise talks and workshops for the young ones. I simply have missed out on it :ahha:

I was thinking a bit about this....but I remember reading that there isn't really a concrete religion known as Hinduism, it's made up of different branches etc...
in fact aren't brahmins of different Indian states meat eaters? don't some even go as far as considering cattle meat as satvic or sumthing? :think:



Praz
Bhakthi...I would say is what I practise...
and you're right I should read the scriptures as opposed to books written by others...


blue.

PS: lovely ppl...arguments are good...I value them...keep it civil though at all times :ee:
thank you.

vasan
01-21-2005, 01:46 AM
Because vegetarian foods tame your mind better and keeps you more at peace. Science again. Doctors say the same today.

Don't know about Science part of it. And definitely my doctor does NOT tell me that...

Have you heard of another Doctor called Dr. Atkins? :ahha:

But we are digressing... Pretty much what I said in my post is all I have to say on this..

About bleu's comment.. yes, Blue.. I agree.. When we don't have a chance to listen, we are sorely limited in our horizon. I am glad that the Saiva temples are organizing these sessions. Most of the teachers (on religion, that is) I have had were not mere teachers of good things but such great role models as well. Their simplicity is the kind of piousness I would seek any day.

Vasan

ps: Is Vasan a Christian name? What is a christian name?? Should I keep an English name or a hebrew name to be a christian? Like Willy would say.. "What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"... Just pulling your legs my dear Prasanna.. :P :P

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 01:53 AM
I was thinking a bit about this....but I remember reading that there isn't really a concrete religion known as Hinduism, it's made up of different branches etc...
in fact aren't brahmins of different Indian states meat eaters? don't some even go as far as considering cattle meat as satvic or sumthing? Thinking

Mm. Sorta true. Hinduism is quite diverse in the form it exists today. People have changed it as they require it many times. But dont ask me what then is original hinduism, i dont know.

Brahmins in Culcutta eat fish. But they are all add-ons. Hinduism does not support eating animals, birds, reptiles or fishes. But it does not shun people who do that. Hinduism does not define sins as Christianity does. God loves you even as a sinner. There are also ideas of heaven and hell in Hinduism, but again i think they are all add ons. Meaning, they all can be removed and you will still have a very beautiful and meaningful religion which gives you bliss and peace.

And why non-vegetarianism. Hinduism also tells about a lot of other things. It demands discipline, devotion, dedication, self-control, dot dot dot. But these things cannot be followed precisely you see.

Let me tell you this too. Serves as a good anology. From ancient times, there have been prostitutes. Stories say that even very pious people went to prostitutes sometimes. So, will you say that Hinduism allows prostitutes? So, does people eat non-vegetarian foods. How does Hinduism comes here. This is purely about people's pleasure and need. Hinduism does not support it, but does not shun it either.


Praz
Bhakthi...I would say is what I practise...
and you're right I should read the scriptures as opposed to books written by others...


Blue, if you wanna read something enjoyable, i suggest Osho's books on Hinduism. Take his ideas with a pinch of salt, but they are well written and enjoyable.


PS: lovely ppl...arguments are good...I value them...keep it civil though at all times EE
thank you.

If it is about me, oops, i cant help it. But who says this is uncivil. Come on, if you feel it is rude, just fire back or PM me and tell me i am stepping beyond my limits. That should restrain me. :)

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 01:57 AM
Pretty much what I said in my post is all I have to say on this..


I thought i answered you comments! Non-vegetarianism does not equate to Hinduism. But hinduism does not support non-vegetarianism. THat, is the point.

It just says that God loves people anyway, regardless of people being cruel, non-vegeratian, or whatever. But ones they reform themselves, they abstain from all those. That is the moral of the story.

!!??

Bluelotus
01-21-2005, 02:07 AM
If it is about me, oops, i cant help it. But who says this is uncivil. Come on, if you feel it is rude, just fire back or PM me and tell me i am stepping beyond my limits. That should restrain me. :)

noooo...it wasn't...just a general comment addressed at everyone.
:D

(if it was one person I would just pm and bug them :oops: )

vasan
01-21-2005, 02:16 AM
Hinduism does not define sins as Christianity does. God loves you even as a sinner.


rr... I think its NOT a true representation of Christianity, but this topic isn't about Christian beliefs, so I shall let it go.. some other time..


But hinduism does not support non-vegetarianism. THat, is the point.

And I said, ALL the hindus I know (except some 'castes'? Don't know how else I should call it.. !) are NON vegetarians. And all of them do quite sincerely believe that hinduism DOES support non-vegetarianism.

And they all practice too. Come any given sunday (except Purattasi month!), there ain't a home that does not cook meat... :P :P Also like I said, animal sacrifices for hindu Gods in TamilNadu are as common as daylights in Chennai.

Vasan

vasan
01-21-2005, 02:34 AM
I don't know if this is a useful information.. But, in Vikatan each week, there is a serial where the reporters interview a family about their saaami kumbidum pazhakkam.. :P :P

The series is titled: இது எங்க சாமி..

Quite an interesting one. Religion, as practiced by most people, don't dig deep in philosophy, but in practices and traditions. Please read it when(ever) you get a chance.

www.vikatan.com (you will have to register to access.. and its in tamil.. So bleu, an article each year should be good .. :wink:)..

Vasan

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 02:42 AM
Extra post!

prasan8181
01-21-2005, 02:44 AM
Quite an interesting one. Religion, as practiced by most people, don't dig deep in philosophy, but in practices and traditions. Please read it when(ever) you get a chance.

True. But what are you interested in. The truth or what is practiced? (In that case, may I ask what is practised in Christianity today? Love for fellow human beings?) Ofcourse what is practised is somewhere close to truth, but in a distorted form. Anyway.

I read Vikatan regularly Vasan. The only article I skip in that is the one you mentioned. ;)

Time to end my arguments?

anainar
01-21-2005, 03:48 AM
Non-vegetarinism and Hinduism are totally unlinked. I dont understand where does this come from. Cows are sacred because of Kamadhenu?? But we have a whole bunch of sacred animals. Mouse is sacred for Ganesh. Vishnu even took the avatar of fish. Does it mean that those are sacred and should not be eaten? There is a name for one of the nayanar's who fed his own child's meat to God, just to emphasise the point of taking care of Guests. So, extrapolating what was told earlier without understanding the meaning is pointless. I am a vegetarian but I also know hundreds of friends who are much more religeously knowledgable than I am but are also non-vegetarians. So, do not link eating habits with Hinduism.

To me religion is faith based. I look at Hindu, Christian as well as Atheist with the same frame of mind. Debating what is written in Rig Veda or whether Mahabaratha really happened are immaterial to me. In the Mahabaratha I know, Bhishma never flinched to try to kill his own students, because that was his job. This despite him trying to stop the killing. What I see is a man who stands for what he is supposed to do given his situation. Same epic also talks about Karna who is willing to give even his own protection mechanism because he believed in giving. The same epic also has characters like Saguni who plays around with these characters. To me, that is a spectrum of characters who tell me subtly how to make my own life. That is Hinduism I would say. Bible, Rig Veda, Quran all might say chapterwise, categorywise how to live. But what about people who cant grasp those things? Is it their fault if they dont know Sanskrit or Urdu or Hebrew? Cant they be Hindus if they dont know Sanskrit?

So, stop talking about understanding Veda's as epitome of knowing Hinduism. That is the strong point of Hinduism. Flexibility, Tolerance and Inclusion.

About prostitution or Devadasi's our knowledge is limited. May be there was a time when prostitution was legal. So was polygamy. But the current Hindu Marriage act prohibit polygamy. So, do not judge religion by what was accepted 1000 years back as a norm. Laws change, so does people's perception. But the basic principles of a religion does not A religion that copes up with these changes is what makes sense.

Cheers

Shy
01-21-2005, 04:49 AM
Wow, u guys are awesome !! Afternoon parthaen, sari evening poi reply panalaamna, athukula evaloo pesiteenga :) very good.

Coolian,

Good topic :b: but I disagree with few.

(1) Vibuthi, Bindi, kumkum

I understand that u say its individual's interest. Good thought. But his is where I disagree


Silican said that he would not wear the vibhuthi before others for fear of being branded as "that hindu guy". That is what shocked me - whether or not he wears the vibhuthi, I do not care. But the reason he says he doesn't wear one is what shocked me. Of course, to each his own.

We are not a majority religion. Only 1 in 20 knows about us. May be they could have heard about our religion. But about its significance, :nono: There are certain things that you should follow when in job. Its the respect that we give for that. We cant go to office in improper dress or any ethnic dress. Because when u are in the office, all it matters is we are equal and our main concern is the company. We shouldnt stand apart, ofcourse we can with our talent. Just imagine, if we go to office in dhothi and saree daily? out of 8 hrs in job, we might be spending 3 hrs explaining to people what this attire is, how we wear it, why we wear it etc etc.. So I dont think there's nothing to get stunned by that.


(2) Beef

If you had said a big no to NON-VEG then i would have agreed completely. But just beef? why as anainar said because its kamadhenu. Ok as far as I understand our religion. Why no meat eating.. Becasue our vedas teach us that the soul is divine. But how do we achieve that, only by our perfection in life. Thus Mukti, freedom for all the bonds, misery in life and finally death. So the condition of our God is purity. He reveals himself to pure heart, manamurukka kadavulai kumbidu. Thus the whole point in our system as far as I understand is a constant struggle to be perfect, to be pure, to have a divine soul and to reach God, see him and be in heaven. So we refrain from having any other living being. But does our religion shun away those who have non-veg no, because thats the beauty of this religion, unity in variety. Other religions have certain restrictions and squeeze people into it. But hindusim is not like that. Man has to understand the rules of life and start to lead a pure life to achieve a divine soul. So whether people have beef or any other meat is immaterial.

To be frank, westerns and other people have beef and since its our God, we see it as a big issue. What if they have Mouse, appo athaiyum thaanae we would have added it to the list. Ella vena sapidungappa, but no beef and mouse. Thats not an argument, if you want to be pure and divine, avoid NO-VEG, simply put. But I wont say those who are NON Vegetarians are Not hindus.

Neenga BEEF'a olunga emphaize eppadi pani irukalaam.. Why cow alone in general theriyumma.. because its like a mother to us.. when we are born, after breast milk, its the cow milk the entire human being start their life with. its like a valarppu thai for us. Each and everything its a giver. Ghee, curd, milk and what not. Our vedas say, cow is the great cleanser, because its the base of all sacrifices. So athai adichu sapidarathu maga paavam.


Shy

Shy
01-21-2005, 05:07 AM
dont want to have a bigggggggg post, so replying individually :)

Vasan,

I am really against on a single note of yours. "Lower castes" where does that come here. I am really against bringing in this man made caste system :evil: romba azhagaana topic ithu..:sm15:

Ok about my argument,

Again eating BEEF makes them lower or just because they are made lower castes by the society 1000s of years back, they have BEEF.


Just what are you talking about? Except for my brahmin friends and a few more 'upper caste' friends NO hindu friend of mine equates vegetarianism with hinduism. NOT one.


Appo why do a bengali brahmin have fish. In their marriage, there should be variaties of fish served and like pickle, they have fish daily. Just because they have fish, they can be accepted as Upper caste, appo arent they lower caste when we see from south? Avalavu yaen neenga appuram athu fishnga, beef ellainu soluveenga. I have seen many upper caste having BEEF, yes including brahmins. Athunaala, dont tell me only brahmins and upper castes equate these too. It all depends on that person. Also I have know some lower castes who are true followers, I mean the entire community doesnt eat any NON-VEG. If you are true follower then by default to reject any meat. Again solraen follower. but veetula poojai ellam nalla senchutu velila poi nalla BEEF, LAMBnu vetita, avan hindu ellainu artham ellai, hes not just a perfect follower, his not pure and his soul is not divine. Avalothaan in the concept of this religion. But at any point you can leave it and start a clean slate. Thats what the moral of person who fed Shiva with meat. Yes he was a Non vegetarain before, but once he became a true follower he let go of that. but avarkku therinchathai thaanae kadavulkku thara mudiyum, so he offered it. Avar nalla mookku mutta sapitutu Godkku tharalai, he was actually chewing each peice to make sure its the good one. Avalothaan.

So lower caste, upper caste, brahmin appadi ellam paagupaadu kadaiyaathu on whose eating what.

Shy

Shy
01-21-2005, 05:33 AM
Finally to Valluvar :)

Christiana siluvaiyaa, ennanga persureenga, appo answer me this. Why are there so many images in a Catholic Church? Why there's so many images in their minds when Protestants pray?

Counting the number of Gods??? Is that the definition you want for a religion. I am sorry then. This religion is not like that. Here God is omnipresent, its the extended sky or of space. Thats all. But is everyone perfect? Can we have a mental image and pray facing the sky? No, we want some focus. Its the law that praying through a material image like an idol is calling the mental picture of your God and thus connecting to him. It helps him to keep his mind fixed on the Great God to whom he prays. But a true hindu will know that the idol hes praying to his not God, because as our religion says, God is omnipresent

So yes we are proud that we have lots of idols to concentrate on our God when we pray. That is not a crime. Why is that we have ganesh in each and every corner. In this busy world, to make to understand that above everything and all of us, hes there and we should pray to him. Its just a pointer to us. I see it as this, Idol Workship, kuran, bible, temples, mosque, church and everything like that in this world are just helping Man to understand the rules of life. To make a divine soul . But its upto him to progress in every step of his life.

Finally someone hear said about Sin. There's no concept of sin in hindusim. All are children of God.

Shy

vasan
01-21-2005, 05:38 AM
So lower caste, upper caste, brahmin appadi ellam paagupaadu kadaiyaathu on whose eating what.

Shy

In philosophical point of view may be. But not in real life, Teacher. BTW, I didn't call them 'lower castes' because they eat beef. I said people whose caste certificates in school has 'lower caste' written on it, are the ones who seemed to be eating beef in Tamil Nadu. If you have ever been to a meat place (God bless your heart, I know you have never been to one.. :P :P).. the beef market and pork market are all always placed in 'lower caste slums'... Try buying pork (which according to Coolian is a OK food for hindus!), in a meat shop?? :P :P Only in Kerala I have found it to be available everywhere. For that matter, in TN, you will have to hunt down some chinese restaurants to eat pork or beef... :P :P

So to reinstate: one constant comment I have heard from my own friends about 'lower castes' is that they eat beef.. And nearly every one of my friends who don't eat nonveg for religious reasons is a brahmin. So if bengali brahmins eat fish, they don't eat something else because their religious beliefs - and two bengalis - one brahmin and non-brahmin, both hindus differ in their diet solely based on their caste. You may not like it, but that does not alter the fact.

Thats the fact of the matter. I am not calling some one below others - unfortunately thats the way so far the society has been referring to them. To me, food does not matter. Only person who has a say about what you can eat or not eat is Doc. Teena... :sm03: :sm03: Avanga solrathu thaan enakku 'vedham'... :P :P

Also,


Ella vena sapidungappa, but no beef and mouse. Thats not an argument, if you want to be pure and divine, avoid NO-VEG, simply put.

and


Thats what the moral of person who fed Shiva with meat. Yes he was a Non vegetarain before, but once he became a true follower he let go of that.

What about God? He fed to God, and presumably God ate too.. So does that make God, impure?? Nandhanar didn't become a 'true follower', he was a TRUE follower, and even God acknowledged it.... Thats the way the puranam goes. In fact the person who does puja comes into the temple and is aghast at the defilement, and Shiva teaches him that love is what makes the heart of a bakhta pure and not eating habits.

Besides, from your very own statement, are you implying people to be untrue followers if they eat meat... ??? I am sorry, but that ain't so. First of all, I don't agree with many people's concept of what is vegetarianism itself - as you probably know :wink: !!


So, do not link eating habits with Hinduism.

I fully accept anainar's above quoted view point. No reservations whatsoever.

Vasan

Priyanka
01-21-2005, 09:21 AM
And I said, ALL the hindus I know (except some 'castes'? Don't know how else I should call it.. !) are NON vegetarians. And all of them do quite sincerely believe that hinduism DOES support non-vegetarianism.

Sila per pandraanga-ngarathukkaaha athu correct aayidaathu. Definitely Hinduism does NOT support non-vegetarianism. Simple example for this is, we never offer non-veg to god. Indha oru example podhaadha. Graamatthula kadaa vetti, saamikku poojai panninaangannaa athu general principle-a edutthukka mudiyaathu. Avanga kudumpatthu pazhakkam athuvaa irukkalaam. But on the whole Hinduism does NOT support non.vegetarianism.

silican
01-21-2005, 08:07 PM
So, do not link eating habits with Hinduism.

I would go a step further and add, 'donot link any habits with any religions'.


Definitely Hinduism does NOT support non-vegetarianism.

Hinduism is not an Operating - System to support some '-ism'. Jokes apart, faith is clearly different from belief. If I believe in something, it is not necessary that I have to buy that theory. "Faith" is what, I know for sure will get me to the goal and follow. Hinduism is just one of the huge and old religions that still exist. If my friend does prayer by sacrificing a goat, thats his faith. He believes that he is presenting his love/trust to God. All religions teach the same thing.

1) Respect your elders.
2) Service to humanity is service to God. and so on.

When you proclaim "Hinduism does NOT support non-vegetarianism" you are totally thrashing away someone's belief. And making fun of someone's belief is a form of discrimination and that by itself is a big sin under any religion.


Finally someone hear said about Sin. There's no concept of sin in hindusim.

:00: Oh really, then what does "Theedhum Nandrum Pirar thara vaara" mean? :think: Sin is a concept common to all religions. It is a vital concept required, to develop good culture and civlization. They are the commodities that make the difference when you consider you and your religion on two different pans of a balance. Your religion gives you these commodities to develop you from your uncultured/uncivilized state.

At one point, when u start thinking about developing the religion by "being active", without your knowledge you tend to lose some of the culture and civilization which your religion had imparted.

- Silican

coolian
01-21-2005, 11:11 PM
Shy:


We are not a majority religion. Only 1 in 20 knows about us. May be they could have heard about our religion. But about its significance, No No There are certain things that you should follow when in job. Its the respect that we give for that. We cant go to office in improper dress or any ethnic dress. Because when u are in the office, all it matters is we are equal and our main concern is the company. We shouldnt stand apart, ofcourse we can with our talent. Just imagine, if we go to office in dhothi and saree daily? out of 8 hrs in job, we might be spending 3 hrs explaining to people what this attire is, how we wear it, why we wear it etc etc.. So I dont think there's nothing to get stunned by that.
Shy, don't equate wearing vibhuthi to wearing some saree or vEshti - the reason being, you do not put vibhuthi on for the same reason you put a saree on. Anytime anyone asks me what the grey ash is on my forehead, I tell him. I educate him. I do not see anything wrong in that. I do not understand why you fellas are so concerned about what others think of you - is it wrong to be different? Just because nobody else wears vibhuthi, you shouldn't too? The point is not whether you wear vibhuthi or not. The point is, if, on a particular day, you want to wear vibhuthi - for whatever reason - why don't you? But we're getting out of topic here.


If you had said a big no to NON-VEG then i would have agreed completely. But just beef?
I am completely against meat-eating. The reason I did not expand on my views is that I did not want to bring this topic to another debate on vegetarianism vs non-vegetarianism. I distinctly remember there being a topic on V vs NV but I can't seem to find it. But if this is where this thread is going, I'll be happy to contribute my views on the topic.


There's no concept of sin in hindusim.
I've no idea what you are talking about here. Everyone IS a child of God, no questions asked. If one commits a sin, one "creates" negative karma - a concept I'm pretty sure you know about.

Silican:


I would go a step further and add, 'donot link any habits with any religions'.
That does not make any sense whatsoever. Religions - at least, if you are somewhat religious - define the way people live. Living by a set of standards leads one to form habits. That's how it is, that's how it will be.


If my friend does prayer by sacrificing a goat, thats his faith. Ok so you're saying that if I kill some random guy on the street and offer him to God (assuming that I strongly believe in sacrificing humans to prove my worth to God), that's fine? Why not? That's my faith too! In Hinduism, one regards everyone/thing around him with love and affection - that's the way it is supposed to be at least. But offering what you think is right makes no sense if that is not tolerated. One shouldn't kill, period, whether the object in question is a cockroach , a goat or a human.

anainar
01-21-2005, 11:39 PM
One shouldn't kill, period, whether the object in question is a cockroach , a goat or a human.

This goes totally against the same Gita you seem to be quoting. No one denies killing should be avoided. But killing is the job for warriors for protecting their hoards. This is what Krishna tells to Arjuna when they were facing each other.

You believing in Veda's or Vegetarianism is one thing. But to encompass or categorize that alone as true Hinduism is wrong. They might have different faiths and they might feel over a period of time that animal sacrifice is not required. Questioning their faith or categorizing them, using words as "True followers" is wrong.

Cheers

Carnatic is best
01-21-2005, 11:43 PM
I am a hindu and I follow all my traditions as much as possible. But I seldon wear Vibudhi. I put it on only on special occasions like Deepavali, etc. I just don't see the significance. I also don't really beleive in any god who is up there. I beleive that god is within me and within everyone else (whether animal, plant, man or non-living). God for me is just some kind of power. I have read Ramayana, Mahabharata, Bhagvad Gita (some of it) and I think there are great things to follow in there.

But really spirituality (on purpose im not using the word religion) is not just about outward appearance...it is about reaching a particular state of mind and at this state of mind you've attained the divine, you've become pure. It is this that I strive for....I don't know how putting vibudhi on my forehead is going to help me.

silican
01-22-2005, 12:01 AM
That does not make any sense whatsoever. Religions - at least, if you are somewhat religious - define the way people live. Living by a set of standards leads one to form habits. That's how it is, that's how it will be.

This arguement goes nowhere. Before, you could judge whether Im religious or not, let me make it easier for you to come to a conclusion easier.

a) When a person dies, his religion dies there with him. But not his deeds or name in the society. This is what my parents taught me, even before I learnt alphabets.
b) Any religion doesnt flourish or continue to grow by Propaganda. They grow and exist only because of the deeds of the people, their service to the society (by society I dont mean some sect of people grouped by religion or caste).
c) Not just Hinduism, all religions stress upon loving other living things.
And If you again quote some decimal numbers saying that from some Veda, dude..not 25% of the Hindus would know that. So if you are to rely upon the pro-**** kind of 'Aryan superiority theory' then I would have nothing but to repent for wasting my time on this discussion.


Ok so you're saying that if I kill some random guy on the street and offer him to God (assuming that I strongly believe in sacrificing humans to prove my worth to God), that's fine? Why not? That's my faith too!

Is that you don't understand the point of discussion ? or prefer to act as if you dont ( looks like Bold tag works for me too :ahha: )

Anyways, as in your first post, these are just my opinions:

A person who goes to the extent of narabali, like you said is a fanatic..so is a person who propagandizes.

- Silican

Priyanka
01-22-2005, 01:00 AM
Kungumam, viboothi, vegetarianism patthi elaam solreengale. Athu ellaam otthottharoda personal belief-a porutthathu otthukkaren. Aana kaasukkaaha madham maarraangale! Avangalai ennannu solrathu. :00: Not only for money. For so many reasons. For example, if a Hindu and a Christian marry, or if a Hindu and a Muslim marry, whether it is male or female, only Hindus get converted to other religions. There are people who get converted to other religions for just few hundreds of rupees. :00: I feel like :sm15: all of them. Why is it so? Andha alavukku kooda avangalukku avanga religion-ukku respect illainnu thaane artham.

Ithu sila peru "religion-la enna irukku. manidhaabimaanam thaan mukkiyam"nu vaadhaaduveenga. Aana why only Hindus get converted? Athu thaan ennoda kelvi. Intha oru vishaiyam en manasai rombave varuttha pada vekkithu.

coolian
01-22-2005, 06:34 AM
That does not make any sense whatsoever. Religions - at least, if you are somewhat religious - define the way people live. Living by a set of standards leads one to form habits. That's how it is, that's how it will be.

This arguement goes nowhere. Before, you could judge whether Im religious or not, let me make it easier for you to come to a conclusion easier.
By "you" I wasn't talking about you - I was referring to anyone in general.


And If you again quote some decimal numbers saying that from some Veda, dude..not 25% of the Hindus would know that. So if you are to rely upon the pro-**** kind of 'Aryan superiority theory' then I would have nothing but to repent for wasting my time on this discussion.
"Some decimal numbers from some Veda"? So that's what those verses mean to you? I quote from the scriptures for the simple fact that I believe in their authority and to show some support for what I say. You're right in saying "not 25% of the Hindus would know that". That's the sad part. Nobody is interested in reading the scriptures, and by referring to them as "some decimal numbers from some Veda," you seem to be in that category. And what do you mean by "pro-**** kind of aryan superiority theory"? No point being cryptic.


Is that you don't understand the point of discussion ? or prefer to act as if you dont ( looks like Bold tag works for me too :ahha: )
No. I was trying to see it from your angle and failed miserably - thankfully.


A person who goes to the extent of narabali, like you is a fanatic..so is a person who propagandizes.
Aaaah...reducing this to personal attacks now, are we?

coolian
01-22-2005, 06:49 AM
Kungumam, viboothi, vegetarianism patthi elaam solreengale. Athu ellaam otthottharoda personal belief-a porutthathu otthukkaren. Aana kaasukkaaha madham maarraangale! Avangalai ennannu solrathu. :00: Not only for money. For so many reasons. For example, if a Hindu and a Christian marry, or if a Hindu and a Muslim marry, whether it is male or female, only Hindus get converted to other religions. There are people who get converted to other religions for just few hundreds of rupees. :00: I feel like :sm15: all of them. Why is it so? Andha alavukku kooda avangalukku avanga religion-ukku respect illainnu thaane artham.

Ithu sila peru "religion-la enna irukku. manidhaabimaanam thaan mukkiyam"nu vaadhaaduveenga. Aana why only Hindus get converted? Athu thaan ennoda kelvi. Intha oru vishaiyam en manasai rombave varuttha pada vekkithu.

Seriously, that is another issue to be addressed. But I'd say the fault is pretty much ours. All this caste crap has created way too many rifts in society, though I think the situation is alleviating. Secondly, all these poor folks want are food, a place to live and clothes...missionaries come and provide all that - a very lucrative offer for the destitute, don't you think? A really sad situation...

anainar
01-22-2005, 03:19 PM
You're right in saying "not 25% of the Hindus would know that". That's the sad part. Nobody is interested in reading the scriptures, and by referring to them as "some decimal numbers from some Veda," you seem to be in that category.

Coolian, I dont understand your obsession with Vedas and categorizing people based on whether they know it or not. If you look at the Nayanmars who are the epitomes of Hinduism in southern india most of them did not know vedas. Nandhanar who used to be a sheperd, but the story is that God did not insist on him knowing vedas, but his faith. Kannappa Nayanar who used to be a hunter but his faith is unquestionable. I dont remember reading anywhere that Kannapar started reading Vedas or Sanskrit after his tryst with God. Chaakiya Nayanar worshipped God by throwing stones at him. Chiruthonda Nayanar fed meat to the God who came as a guest and asked for meat. Kungiliya Nayanar did not pray or go to the temple, but sold Kungiliyam with faith to the devotees. The quartrets, Appar, Thirugana sambandar, Sundarar and Thirunavukarasar were not known for their knowledge of vedas. None of them had any antecedents of Vedic culture. But they all had unquestionable faith in God and praised him in their own ways. So would they also fall in the same "Category" as you are mentioning?

You are talking so much about Vedas. But have you taken time to know about Thirumanthiram? Or its author Thirumoolar? Or the fact it covers different aspects of life including physiology and medicines? Or is it because that is not in Sanskrit, it is not Hinduism?

It is this obsessions with knowing scriptures that cause so much rift and so called "Categories" in Hinduism. Sad to know that even after 5000 years of heritage there are still people who want to "Categorize" based on the knowledge of scriptures, rather than faith. To me it is just that they did not understand the concept of religion, but superficial representation of it in Scriptures. Those scriptures hold more value to them, than what is told in that.

Think of Aandaal. Her father used to do pooja everyday, so knowledgable in Vedas and Sanskrit. But the legend is that God did not choose to take him by his side, instead the young girl whose only knowledge was her faith in him. Hindu mythology is replete with such histories, just to emphasise that point that Faith scores over every thing else. So is every religion.

Cheers

anainar
01-22-2005, 03:59 PM
I hate to do this, but cant resist to quote some verses from Thirumandiram which is kind of similar to the Gita you are talking about.. See the contradiction..

Job of a King.

த்த்தம் சமயத் தகுதி நில்லாதாரை
அத்தன் சிவன் சொன்ன ஆகம நூல்நெறி
எத்தண் டமுஞ்செயும ் அம்மையில் இம்மைக்கே
மெய்த்தண்ட ம் செய்வது அவ்வேந்தன் கடனே

So, the king has to do his job of punishing if needed. But, listen to this which is againt killing

கொல்லாமை

பற்றாய நற்குரு பூசைக்கும் பன்மலர்
மற்றோர் அணுக்களைக் கொல்லாமை ஒண்மலர்
நற்றார் நடுக்கற்ற தீபமும் சித்தமும்
உற்றாரும் ஆவி அமர்ந்திடம ் உச்சியே

So, knowing Rig Vedas or scriptures are not the only thing. Thirumanthiram is replete with such ways to live. So are other scriptures. But our parents/ancestors have inculcated those values even without reading those scriptures minutely with decimal numbers.

The point is every literature and vedas have some thing to say. Even if you dont know them based on their paragraph numbers and section numbers, getting a gist and having faith is more valuable than just knowing it.

Cheers

PS: I was introduced to this marvellous piece of Tamil literature by my brother's father in law some 10 years back. Because I used to believe in Communism( typical of college student aint it? ) by then, used to have arguments with him on this. I thoroughly enjoyed those conversations and reading this literature which is like the blue print of a Constitution for a nation, except in a different spiritual way. A few topics from that piece and see the connotation

1.பிறன்மனை நயவாமை ( Adultry, Hindu Marriages Act )
2.மகளிர் இழிவு ( Respecting Women )
3.நல்குரவு ( Diplomacy )
4. அரசாட்சி முறை
5. வானச்சிறப் பு ( Ecology and preserving it )
6.அன்புடைமை
7. அன்பு செய்வாரை அறியும் சிவன்
There are many many such topics in that book.

Priyanka
01-22-2005, 06:04 PM
அனைனார்! Thankyou very much for your quotes from thirumandiram. :sm03: Aana athukku artham thaan puriyalai. :cry:

I am able to understand the first one.


கொல்லாமை

பற்றாய நற்குரு பூசைக்கும் பன்மலர்
மற்றோர் அணுக்களைக் கொல்லாமை ஒண்மலர்
நற்றார் நடுக்கற்ற தீபமும் சித்தமும்
உற்றாரும் ஆவி அமர்ந்திடம ் உச்சியே

If you don't mind can you explain this please. :pray:

silican
01-22-2005, 06:38 PM
A person who goes to the extent of narabali, like you is a fanatic..so is a person who propagandizes.

Aaaah...reducing this to personal attacks now, are we?

Im really sorry for the mistake :pray: I didnt mean it that way..In that post, you have talked about people killing humans. This was in existence till 85-86 in calcutta.

That struck to me and I wanted to say "A person who goes to the extent of narabali, like you said is a fanatic..so is a person who propagandizes."

But missed it completely.. Im sorry for that. I didnt intend to get personal or hurt you anyway.

And about that Decimal and Aryan theory I wanted to make my point dont brood over people not knowing Vedas.

To decrpyt further, Hitler had a vague theory and that led to the crusade of Jews in Germany. His theory was called the Aryan Superiority theory and tht still exist with the neo-**** groups in germany. Its the same age old human mentality of descrimination based on color. In olden days, the Vedas were just restricted to the upper sects of the people and most Dravidians were categorized into the last section "shudraas". That was a slump period and that led to many people in the southern part of the country migrating to Bhuddism or Jainism.
And PK,
seriously I don't see anything wrong in people opting to choose a different religion. Be it money, or their sudden faith. I have a friend who got converted to christianity after his mom got out of paralytic attack, after attending some prayer sessions in a nearby church.

Religions are meant to give peace to the people. My friend believed that The Christ gave his mom and his family a new life. So he got converted. If some munusamy, mannarsamy (Anainar, I got the right names this time I guess :) ) feels that he would come out of poverty if he converts to another religion, let him do so. what is wrong in that ?? It doesnt mean that he/she doesnt disrespect the religion. He/She just got a faith in something else and believes that he/she will get a better way of living.

PS: Those Thirumandiram extracts are really good :clap:. I have never read thirumandiram before. Thanks for posting.

Priyanka
01-22-2005, 11:36 PM
And PK,
seriously I don't see anything wrong in people opting to choose a different religion. Be it money, or their sudden faith. I have a friend who got converted to christianity after his mom got out of paralytic attack, after attending some prayer sessions in a nearby church.

Oh! Appadingalaa? Appo kasukkaha madham marrathu thappillaingareenga. Hmm... Appadiye ellaarum maara arambiccha naaladaivula Hinduism-ngara religion-e azhinju poidum. Erkenave andha bayam nam mathatthukku irukkarathaa enakku paduthu. :00: Appuram Hinduism-na oru religion irundhudhunnu namba varungaala sandhadhiyinar History booka padicchi therinjukkara nelamai vandhudum.

Hinduism-ngarathu epper patta madham theriyumaa? Founder-e illaatha madham enakku therinju Hinduism onnu thaan. Ivanga ellaam kaasukkaahavum mattha nambikkaikalukkaahavum madham maari namba religion-ai kocchai paduttharatha nenaccha en rattham kodhikkuthu.


have a friend who got converted to christianity after his mom got out of paralytic attack, after attending some prayer sessions in a nearby church.

Nicchaiyam ithu thappu thaan. See Hinduism is not a religion which says that you should worship only rama or Krishna. You can even worship Jesus or allah and still be a Hindu. But why do you get converted? In fact I had one problem during pregnancy. Appo naan Jesus-ai vendikkitten. Then I got out of that problem. Athukkaaha odane naan Christian-aa madham maarittena? I am proud to say that I strongly believe in Christianity. Eththanaiyo dhadavai church-ukkellam poirukken.

Usual-a Christians yaarum church-ukku poracche seruppai kazhatti vaikkarathillai. Athai naan thappu sollalai. Avanga matham athai thevai illainnu ninaikkuthu. Aana naan church-ukku pona seruppai kazhatti vacchuttu thaan poven. Yenna ennoda nambikkai appadi. Ithai yen naan sonnenna Christianity-ai naan andha alavukku madhikkaren. But still I will be faithful to my own religion.

Priyanka
01-22-2005, 11:40 PM
Romba neelamaana post vendamnuttu thaan innoru post-la continue pandren. See we need not be fanatics. But we should have atleast some basic respect for our religion. Avanga kaasu kudutthaanga, ivanga sonnangannuttu madham maari kuzhandhai paruvatthulerndhu naam kadai pidicchuttu vandha madhatthai kocchai paduttha koodaathu. This is my view.

silican
01-23-2005, 01:06 AM
Oh! Appadingalaa? Appo kasukkaha madham marrathu thappillaingareenga. Hmm... Appadiye ellaarum maara arambiccha naaladaivula Hinduism-ngara religion-e azhinju poidum. Erkenave andha bayam nam mathatthukku irukkarathaa enakku paduthu. Appuram Hinduism-na oru religion irundhudhunnu namba varungaala sandhadhiyinar History booka padicchi therinjukkara nelamai vandhudum. Hinduism-ngarathu epper patta madham theriyumaa? Founder-e illaatha madham enakku therinju Hinduism onnu thaan. Ivanga ellaam kaasukkaahavum mattha nambikkaikalukkaahavum madham maari namba religion-ai kocchai paduttharatha nenaccha en rattham kodhikkuthu.

This fear is baseless. :doh: Religions dont die so easy. Think in his perspective. He would have thought : being a Hindu and called a low caste, what happiness or peace have I got ? That xyz religion seems good. Lot of people I know in that group are happy. Y shouldn't I try ?

Imagine, someone in Dire straits always looks for possibilities of coming out of his/her misery. I dont think any rich , healthy and peaceful-to-an-extent Hindu or Christian or Muslim converts to a different religion. :snooty: So it is evident that misery and poverty make people go in search of a solution and when some other religion promises that, a belief turns into a faith. This is noway wrong.


Nicchaiyam ithu thappu thaan. See Hinduism is not a religion which says that you should worship only rama or Krishna. You can even worship Jesus or allah and still be a Hindu. But why do you get converted?

:00: :00: Now come on! I walk in a specific road everyday to my destination and if I hear from my friend that his road which goes to the same destination is with lots of greeneries around, I would definitely try that isnt it ? If I like it I would continue to travel in that. Simple. Does it mean that my previous road is no good and soon would become out of use ?? Noway, people who like a religion, people who have faith in some religion by all means have all rights to convert to the religion of their choice. There is no point telling what they do is wrong.

- Silican

Shy
01-23-2005, 01:42 AM
Acho one day varalai.. athukula evaloo discussion :00: :cry: :cry: engae arambhikarthu eppo theriyalai... mm fulla padichutu varaen

Shy

Bluelotus
01-23-2005, 01:55 AM
Peeka,

I undertsand that you are concerned about conversions. However this isn't the correct thread to hash it out :wink: (if you wish to discuss it please feel free to start a separate thread for it :D )
Apart from forced conversions, other types of conversions are done with the full conscent of the person, they obviously were not happy and decided to embrace another "faith" more wholeheartedly.

Doesn't krishna at some point say to Arjuna....something along the lines of "you can worship me in any form etc..."



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
anyway....

about Hinduism

The sad fact is that people refuse to accept that Hinduism is not like the other religions...it is vast, it is a name very much like a tent which includes everything and lots of things
beliefs of various cultures have intermingled to create the mulitcoloured religion we assume is one

And the other thing is Hinduism is not something based on books, it isn't Christianity,Islam, Sikhism, Judaism, etc...
It's a lot more complex.



It is though sadly in need of revival

To expect someone to read scriptures in a different language than their own is ridiculous!
if the Bible can be translated and a standard Bible used in each Church (as not place of worship but the establishment) then so too should those sanscript texts be translated and standardised!!!!!
(sort of like Anglicans use the King James I bible...so they all read the same verses)

Is it for lack of translators?

I believe that in the past...the brahmins did try to keep those scriptures away from the non-sanscrit reading populace out of sheer malice to remain in control...but now when everyone accepts that castes are a load of non-sense ...to still have no standardised text of each and every scriptures in every language is the height of stupidity!
and then to rant that there is no demand...and that the religion is "going out of fashion" is beyond that :Ksp:

I think I lost the plot of this again somewhere :? :think: :think: :think:



blue

ps:
none of the above is a personal remark...so don't try to take it that way :wink: it really wouldn't be worth your while :ahha:

vijitha
02-09-2005, 06:28 PM
hmm i didn't read all the posts... but just wanna know...

I am a non-veg.. eat meat almost everyday.. i don't believe in the fact that your not suppose to eat meat or non-veg on certain days (like friday) but its ok to eat on other days.... and i don't wear pottu or vibuthi... i don't go to temple every friday and tuesday.... actually i don't do anything that hindus suppose to do.. But i do pray everyday... and i believe in God (shiva and shakthi)...

the fact that i don't do anything that hindus "suppose" to do... does that make me a less of a hindu??

katteri
02-09-2005, 07:14 PM
Vijitha,

Its not necessary that you need to go to temple everday or every friday to be a hindu..

As anainar Said...Eating does'nt link with religion..Hinduism belief is surmounted on birth and destruction...concept.
I heard one old man saying that u r previuos birth decides wht u are and u r present activities decides u r next birth..

Hindu...

I did had a chat with an archeologist i asked him is there an evidence of a religion name as hindu..

He gave a beautiful explanation. Aryans and dravidians are the first and foremot people to settle in indus valley and form the civilization..

People started workshipping the 5 elements bcos the 5 elements had (and is)intimidate them..
So in a way people of early civilisation developed ethics and codes to live an undisputed life.
The ethics and code is still being practicised in some animal species.

Gradually vedas were added.People started to ask questions? as they thought....
People living in indus valley were called as hindus.
and
Emperors from persia, afghan call the indus valley hindustan..
The word hindustan may have been coined in around 10 bc to 15 ad.

prasan8181
02-09-2005, 08:49 PM
Thats what the moral of person who fed Shiva with meat. Yes he was a Non vegetarain before, but once he became a true follower he let go of that.

What about God? He fed to God, and presumably God ate too.. So does that make God, impure?? Nandhanar didn't become a 'true follower', he was a TRUE follower, and even God acknowledged it.... Thats the way the puranam goes. In fact the person who does puja comes into the temple and is aghast at the defilement, and Shiva teaches him that love is what makes the heart of a bakhta pure and not eating habits.

Besides, from your very own statement, are you implying people to be untrue followers if they eat meat... ??? I am sorry, but that ain't so. First of all, I don't agree with many people's concept of what is vegetarianism itself - as you probably know :wink: !!

Vasan

Dear Mr. Vasan, I just want to say this. This is not directly related to the argument, but it is about something that you usually do. I saw it only now. Hm, did you really not understand what i meant? If true love is all that matters, then why the damn would Nandanar become a vegetarian later? And what do you call as love? Pray tell me, what do you call as love? Love is being kind to all creatures of God. And that includes plants (Vallalar's love for plants - to cite one). And people realize that it is cruel to kill a living being which is no different from you in its soul, just for the pleasure of eating.

And hinduism tells us that eating meat is not right. It tells us that eating meat does not lead us to higher truth.

And to your comment Mr. Vasan. True follower means someone who follows the religion. God does not need true followers. God is not trying to lead you or drag you anywhere. What do you want? You want me to be precise to the point of writing essays instead of a single line?

Love sir, love. That same love is what i am talking about. Love towards all creatures is love towards God. And loving does not mean loving to eat! Pray let me be clear in what i say. I hate to argue on that.

" Besides, from your very own statement, are you implying people to be untrue followers if they eat meat... ??? I am sorry, but that ain't so." -- vasan

For heaven's sake! When did i say something like that? Well, you be the true follower. You even be God himself. What do i care?

Hm, you have gripped that phrase "true follower" in a sense i never meant it to be, and you have proved me wrong. Alright, be it so, sir. Whatever makes you happy.

PS: Now dont ask me if that means that we should not eat plants too. We dont really kill plants and eat them, we only eat their fruits or vegetables, like we drink the milk from cow. Hey, i am not going to argue on this again. Sure.

vasan
02-09-2005, 09:25 PM
Thank you very much for a polite and civilized dialogue, Dear Mr. Prasanna. Only thing I wish more is that you would read what I write (including what is implied) and then question me.. So far as I know, I think I read what you write, and hopefully understand your point of view as well. What I DO NOT really understand is what you claim as essence of hinduism's ideas on vegetarianism.


Hm, did you really not understand what i meant? If true love is all that matters, then why the damn would Nandanar become a vegetarian later?

I have no idea why he became a vegetarian.. Don't even know if he became one - but since you are sure, I will take you on that. However the essence of the story of Nandhanar is that 'meat eating' did not make him less of a hindu. That is the crux of the story.


Pray tell me, what do you call as love? Love is being kind to all creatures of God.

I don't know what is love. It means a whole bunch of this to me. While I agree that I must be kind to all creatures, I would not say I love all creatures. Also, eating meat is not because I am cruel to one creature. I use flowers for my purpose, pluck tomatoes for my food, hunt animals for my food, and I am not cruel to my rose plant or to my tomato vine or the creatures in the forest. People do not kill plants or animals because they want to be cruel or enjoy killing, but for food. Whole lot of difference, in those intentions, whether you see it that way or not.


Love towards all creatures is love towards God.

Forgive me. I don't agree thats the view of Hinduism. Nor do I believe in such a statement. I don't have to love mosquitoes or roaches, to give a out of ordinary example, to love God. I think Jainism teaches that. But not hinduism. Not so far as I know. Not one of the characters in Ramayana or Mahabharata did that either. Or perhaps, killing people in war is not killing for you, or perhaps you believe that those activities teach nothing about hinduism.


And loving does not mean loving to eat! Pray let me be clear in what i say. I hate to argue on that.

You are more than clear, Mr. Prasanna. Nevertheless I beg to differ from you, in that, I don't believe that its the essence of hinduism. (Read also Anainar & Silican's comments on this issue. I fully agree with their views on Hinduism).


" Besides, from your very own statement, are you implying people to be untrue followers if they eat meat... ??? I am sorry, but that ain't so." -- vasan

For heaven's sake! When did i say something like that? Well, you be the true follower. You even be God himself. What do i care?

Hm, you have gripped that phrase "true follower" in a sense i never meant it to be, and you have proved me wrong. Alright, be it so, sir. Whatever makes you happy.


If you had only looked at it little more carefully, you would notice that, I didn't say you said that, my dear Sir. I replied to Shy (including her quote, but not her name, unfortunately), and replied to her. True follower is her choice of words, and I was trying (effectively or ineffectively, I have no idea) to show the contradiction in her viewpoints. Thats all. Don't know if it makes me happy - thats not the point of the dialogue anyways - but was hoping that Shy would see what I am trying to say.


We dont really kill plants and eat them, we only eat their fruits or vegetables, like we drink the milk from cow. Hey, i am not going to argue on this again. Sure.

Well.. whatever. I have lived in a farming community - and have grown things.. I know what is killing a plant and not killing a plant. Experience and botany too. Just happened to disagree with you on this too, but if you are not willing to think about it, perhaps I would not argue either.

As a general note, (not just for this particular reply to Mr. Prasanna, but to the whole thread) I am not finding fault with practices, but rather questioning if the statements are consistent or correct. Which is a longer way of saying, nothing personal about any one, but more thinking aloud on philosophical implications of certain concepts. (this seems like a long version too.. :oops:)..


v-

coolian
02-09-2005, 10:37 PM
Captain, from what I know, the word "hindu" was first mentioned by the persians who were referring to the people who lived near the Sindhu river. I believe the Parsi equivalent of 'S' in Sanskrit is 'H' - hence the name. Apart from that, I believe the whole Aryan-Dravidian theory is a piece of crap. An interesting essay on the Aryan Invasion Theory (http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_agrawal.html).

vasan
02-09-2005, 10:55 PM
Apart from that, I believe the whole Aryan-Dravidian theory is a piece of crap.

This is not just some 'story'.. its a theory proposed to explain several historical things, linguistic differences, and variety of ethnicities found, as well as archealogical findings. And Katteri's friend is not the only one who suggests so, and its a widely held view point.

Care to expound your reasons for calling it 'piece of crap' Coolian? Just curious.

v-

katteri
02-10-2005, 11:27 AM
I believe the whole Aryan-Dravidian theory is a piece of crap. .

This is a well accepted theory and it has been prooved....and that is the reason they are included in school history books...

Prasanna Cool aaavunga...

We all know alcohol is not good for health at the same time some doctors ask their heart patients to take moderate amount of alcohol..

Hinduism states drinking alcohol is bad for health and every people in the planet will accepts this...

The alcohol suggested by Dr is a mere medicine..

Religious concepts are very difficult to understand and u shd know the actual reasons behind it rather than accepting the ideology itself..

gordelvansmaragd
04-28-2005, 01:18 AM
அcடுஅல்ல்ய , தெ ந்கொலெ அர்யன் ட்ரவிடிஅன் தெஒர்ய் ச்டுff இச் அ லொஅட் ஒf cரப் அச் fஅர் அச் கெனெடிcச் கொ. அ ச்டுட்ய் இன் ப்ரைல் கச் cஒன்cலுடெட் தட் ச்கின் cஒலொஉர் இச் அ போர் இன்டிcஅடொர ஒf ரcஎ. இட்'ச் அல்சொ அ ப்ரொவென் fஅcட் தட் என்விரொன்ம ென்டல் இன்fலுஎன்cஎ ்(நெஅதெர் எட்c) இன்fலுஎன்cஎ fஅcஇஅல் ச்ட்ருcடுர . அச் fஒர் இட் பெஇங் டௌக்க்ட் இன் ச்சோல், அ லொட் ஒf ச்டுff நெ லெஅர்ன் இச் fஅல்செ... fஒர் இன்ச்டன்cஎ இன் பிஒலொக்ய் நெ லெஅர்ன் இன் ச்சோல் தட் இட்'ச் ட்நொ பைர்ச் ஒர் அல்லெல்ச் தட் டெடெர்மினெ எயெ cஒலொஉர். கொநெவெர், இட்'ச் அன் அccஎப்டெட் fஅcட் தட் தெரெ அரெ அட் லெஅச்ட் த்ரே பைர்ச் ஒf அல்லெல்ச். கிட்ச் அரெ ச்டில்ல் டௌக்க்ட் தட் 2 லிக்க்ட் எயெட் பெஒப்லெ cஅன்னொட் கவெ அ டர்க் எயெட் சில்ட். கொநெவெர், திச் தெஒர்ய் இச் ப்ரொவென் fஅல்செ.
அச் fஒர் தெ ந்கொலெ தெஒர்ய், இ டகெ இட் நித் அ ட்ருcக்லொஅ ் ஒf சல்ட் சின்cஎ cஒலொனிஅலிச ம் நச் வெர்ய் ப்ரெஜுடிcஎ ். டகெ fஒர் எ௯அம்ப்லெ தெ புச்ட் ஒf நெர்டிடீன் பெர்லின். டுரிங் தெ ந்கொலெ 'ட்ரிட்டெ ரெஇச்' திங், தெய் fஒஉன்ட் இட் கர்ட் டொ பெலிஎவெ தட் சுச் அ பெஔடிfஉல் நொமன் cஒஉல்ட் பெ சொ டர்க் ச்கின்னெட் (னெfஎர்டிடி நச் ஒf மி௯எட் அன்cஎச்ட்ர ய், லொட்ச் ஒf ப்லcக் இன் கெர்), சொ தெய் லிக்க்டெனெ ட் தெ ச்கின் டொ மகெ கெர் மொரெ 'அர்யன்'...
அல்சொ, லோகிங் அட் கின்டு ச்cரிப்டுர ச், இ fஇன்ட் தட் தெரெ ரெஅல்ல்ய் இச்ன்'ட் முச் இன் சுப்பொர்ட் ஒf தெ தெஒர்ய்... இட் லொவெ டொ எலபொரடெ புட் திச் இச் ம்ய் fஇர்ச்ட் பொச்ட், அன்ட் இட்'ச் ப்ரெட்ட்ய் லொங் எனொஉக்க் அச் இட் இச்...

vijitha
04-28-2005, 01:49 AM
gordelvansmaragd

neenga enna elluthu irukkirnga????

gordelvansmaragd
04-28-2005, 02:06 AM
gordelvansmaragd

neenga enna elluthu irukkirnga???? sorry bout that.. made a mistake with the whole tamil thing...
as i was saying(thank god for good ol english lol)
the aryan dravidian thing is cr@p imo... why?
1. there has never really been any research to actually genetically base this fact.
2. a study in brazil has concluded that skin colour and perceived 'racial charchteristics', esp skin colour, are very bad/incorrect indicators of ancestry...
3. colonialist thinking was highly prejudiced... take for instance the nust of nefertiti. it's still in berlin, and during the third reich time, it is a little known fact that the skin colour on the bust wa sactually ligthtened. why? because they couldn't possibly fathom that a woman of non 'aryan' descent could be so beautiful(nefertiti was of mixed heritage, lots of black)
4. as for being taught so in school, much of what we're taught is not true.. take for instance biology. in school we're taught that there are only 2 pairs of allels that govern eye colour. in fact it's proven that 3 or more pairs govern this trait. we're also taught that 2 light eyed people cannot possibly have a child with dark eyes... however this isn't true.
5. history is written byt he victors, and this whole aryan dravidian stuff was a colonial venture. take for instance julius caesar. we learn in school he was a great man, a great military leader and what not. BS! ive read all hi libri, all the de bello gallico. i can tell you this man was in greta dept, didn't manage money well imo, and boasts about the amount of people he killed(he kept count in certain battles). today he would be thought of as a war criminal, along the lines of milosevic... this person who is so glorified, can be proven to be a ruthless selfish person. what about the stuff that can't be proven before a certain timeline...
6. it's also a little known fact that duing the raj, the british sought to divide the population(again, divide et impera), scholars were told to look for or invent something to divide the mass with.
7. max mueller himself retracted his analysis when his theory came under fire.
8. hindu scriptures do not support this whole aryan dravidian thing imo
9. it's also a fact that environmentasl factors(weather etc) influence facial structure... face it, india doesn't have the same weather everywhere...
sorry for the long post

prasan8181
04-28-2005, 03:23 AM
sorry for the long post

Haha. Well, first, yours does not qualify for a long post. :ahha: And even if the posts are long enough, there is nothing to apologize over it. It is a free world gordelvansmaragd, and everyone should have the right to atleast talk. :)

prasadvrg
04-30-2005, 11:40 AM
Hello Coolian and Vasan,

Just discovered this topic. I am a practising Hindu and I am very much interested in reading all the posts.

Only thing is , I read the first few posts and got fed up scrolling the button left to right, becasue the page doesn't fit the screen. Is there a way to fit the page in screen so you don'thave to scroll left to right and vice versa.

thanks, Regards,
Prasad

dinesh
04-30-2005, 02:16 PM
Wonder how I missed this?... :think:

It is generally true that Hindus don't understand the reasons behind Hindu paratices and they just follow it 'cos they were told to. In that I agree with coolian. But Hinduism is not restricted to Vedhas, or Bhagavat Gita. There are ஆகமங்கள் which are specific to Saivism and so on. All of these explain how to lead a good life, which if you ask me, is the essence of Hindusim itself. Hinduism does not force one to follow a set of rules. Indeed most of these rules were written down with the passage of time. Coolian, you say that god said not to eat beef......did She tell you directly? Or is there some scripture that says so? If that is the case, what is the proof that the scripture was written by god herself? Chances are it was written by some other lad/lass just like you and me. It is this that Hinduism attempts to avoid by offering a greater level of flexibility.

In சைவம் there are several levels of rigour, with which you can practice it. If you consider food patterns, கடுஞ்சுத்த சைவம் says, don't even drink milk....அசுத்த சைவம் in contrast does not place many restrictions in your diet. Similar thing with the different gods and goddesses, all are there so that you can relate to one which you feel the closest to. ஞானிகள்/சித்தர்கள் never bothered going to the temple, nor were they really into வீபூதி or other சிவசின்னங் கள். Does that mean they are irresponsible? In fact hinduism defines three levels of worshipping...the last of them is அருவ வழிபாடு, where you don't bother with the material things, because you can now relate to an inner peace without having to rely on an environment. It is this concept that defines Hinduism. Rules and regulations were written by people to suit the folks in that particular time period, in a particular society. There is no way you could say everyone has to follow this word by word. Silican is right when he says that he only wears வீபூதி for a limited amount of time, and so is coolian who wears வீபூதி for half the day. It is what you are more comfortable with.

Same goes for food. Apart from the history of கண்ணப்ப நாயனார், who defined what love is, you can find several mentions of முனிவர்கள் consuming meat in Hindu history(அகத்திய முனிவரும் வாதாபி/வில்வலனும் மனதிற்கு வருகிறார்க ள்). Again it is what you are comfortable with. More than preventing the suffering of aimals, why some scriptures advocate non-vegetarianism, I believe, is because you have to distance yourseleves from worldly pleasures. This is a consistent message throughout Hinduism. It is these pleasures that makes you do evil things, because you want to have them at any cost. If you are past the point where you are materialistic, then no dietary regimes are going to alter your position. Apart from this eating plants is not going to help you at all.

OK.....now time to bash paati :ahha:


Definitely Hinduism does NOT support non-vegetarianism. Simple example for this is, we never offer non-veg to god. Indha oru example podhaadha. Graamatthula kadaa vetti, saamikku poojai panninaangannaa athu general principle-a edutthukka mudiyaathu. Avanga kudumpatthu pazhakkam athuvaa irukkalaam. But on the whole Hinduism does NOT support non.vegetarianism.
Hindu scriptures that were promoted by Brahmins and and மனு சாஸ்திரம் say so. As explained above, ஆகமங்கள் tell you that you can follow what is more applicable to you. In Sri Lanka, there are only a very small percentage of Brahmins around. And the rest of Tamils eat meat. Are you trying to imply that all of them are sinners? I wouldn't mind sinning, but my parents will be shocked by this accusation.

So, gramathulae kida vettina athu mudanambikkai, but whatever you guys do is the correct hinduism? Are you trying to joke? Hindusim never places restrictions on characteristics. In fact it is extremely sad that Hinduism has been dragged down to a level that now when you ask உங்க வீட்டில இன்னைக்கு சைவமா? implies are you having vege food today. A religion with principals of living a good life built around it for centuries, is now used to define a particular diet......

Why do you guys place so much importance on food at all? Isn't spirituality a step above all these material things? You are eating பருப்பு சாதம். Do I have any problems with it? Why have you guys got to define what I can eat and what not? Is it not enough that I lead a good life, don't create problems to my neighbour, and do whatever good I can? God, hindus are going to overtake the Catholic church in hypocrisy at this rate.



For so many reasons. For example, if a Hindu and a Christian marry, or if a Hindu and a Muslim marry, whether it is male or female, only Hindus get converted to other religions. There are people who get converted to other religions for just few hundreds of rupees. I feel like all of them. Why is it so? Andha alavukku kooda avangalukku avanga religion-ukku respect illainnu thaane artham.

Ithu sila peru "religion-la enna irukku. manidhaabimaanam thaan mukkiyam"nu vaadhaaduveenga. Aana why only Hindus get converted? Athu thaan ennoda kelvi. Intha oru vishaiyam en manasai rombave varuttha pada vekkithu.
Some Hindus are getting converted because some issues they face are more relevant and important than what god they are going to bow in front of tomorrow morning. If people are willing to segregate another group of people and not care about their welfare, then what is wrong with those people going to a place where they will be cared for. If you are so concerned about this, why don't you go to their places every day and make sure they get three square meals daily? Ramakrishna Paramahamsa once said, that you cannot teach sirituality to someone who is dying of hunger....and to make sure he is fed before you teach spirituality to him. It is the same case here. Of course they are shallow to do so, but not everyone can live by consuming plain air.

Another imporatant point to be noted is that Hinduism has been around for a very long time. It survived the Mughal periods, it survived the colonials. A bunch of people converting is not really going to hinder its existence. What will be wrong to do is that for hindus to resort to the conversion culture or to stop conversions by writing laws. At the end of the day, people who are happy with Hindusim are the only people that are going to take it to the next generation, It is not a number game.

silican
04-30-2005, 03:04 PM
For so many reasons. For example, if a Hindu and a Christian marry, or if a Hindu and a Muslim marry, whether it is male or female, only Hindus get converted to other religions. There are people who get converted to other religions for just few hundreds of rupees. I feel like all of them. Why is it so? Andha alavukku kooda avangalukku avanga religion-ukku respect illainnu thaane artham.

Continuation to Paati Bashing :ahha: :ahha:

If suppose a Bramin girl marries a non brahmin guy, is the religion going to take him as a Brahmin ?? No way. The problem is not with the religion, but we the people who have forced so many restrictions.

- Silix

prasadvrg
04-30-2005, 08:23 PM
Hinduism is so revered only because of its acceptance. In general, Hindus are very accepting, kind hearted , non judgemental. A bit Blasee. Calm cool and collected.
As Dinesh quoted, Hindus in general are not very much interested in food. We eat to live not live to eat.

prasad

coolian
04-30-2005, 08:25 PM
A nearly-dead topic revived! Lotsa stuff to comment on - lotsa stuff to think about too.

prasadvrg
04-30-2005, 09:13 PM
Coolian,
I am so happy that you started this topic. You seem very passionate about Hinduism. Passiveness is a great virtue and most Hindus are passive and tolerant.

I don't know many rules and regulations, but I still look at Rahu Kalam, wear red dot on the forehead. At home we were told that Tamilians wear Vibhuti and Andhras wear kumkum, not a round red dot like women wear, but just a little on the forehead.

I do perform Sandhyavandanam. Yes, I don't know th whole meaning of it, but I do it because it makes me happy. I understand parts of it ( like namskarams for different directions, offering different parts of our body to God, and invoking the Sapta Rishis etc. etc. )

I would be very happy if someone can shed light on Sandhyavandanam.

Good work Coolian. Ionly hope that people won't get offended or take it personally, your passionate views.

It is also true, that Hindus are not taught religion at home. We practise, but we are not taught.

Regards,
Prasad

Idiot
04-30-2005, 09:30 PM
hai prasad,

here is something what i know/ learn about sandhyavandhanam

Sandhya Vandanam literally means either "Salutation to the goddess of Dawn and dusk or the prayers done during dawn and dusk." Hindus considered the period just before dawn and just after dusk as well as the exact period of noon , as extremely suitable for meditation. All Brahmins after Upanayanam (prescribed to be done at the age of seven), were required to do these prayers without fail. Essentially these prayers are offering oblations to the devas (arghya pradanam), doing breathing exercises (pranayamam) and then meditating on Gayathri by chanting the king of all manthras "Gayathri". This Manthra is taught to every boy by his own father during the ceremony of brahmopadesam. After learning Gayathri every boy is supposed to have taken a second birth and is entitled to be called "Dwija".



for more details her is the link Sandhyavandhanam (http://www.keralaiyers.com/sandhyatrans1.html)

prasadvrg
04-30-2005, 09:47 PM
Hello iig,
thanks for the info and the link.
I have downloaded the file and am reading it now.
Thanks once again.
Regards,
Prasad

Idiot
04-30-2005, 09:56 PM
it contains various other links regarding sandhyavandhanam and other stuffs also.
and it is more interesting explaining each and every part of sandhyavandhanam

have a nice time

coolian
08-18-2005, 02:04 AM
Some of you might find this article interesting.

[web:264e01a348]http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/035.htm[/web:264e01a348]

I don't agree with some of the points the writer put forth, though.

vasan
08-18-2005, 02:33 AM
I don't agree with some of the points the writer put forth, though.

Many of them actually. In his desire to 'codify' what is and what is not, the author seems to have missed the essence of 'hinduism'... (and has definitely wrongly attributed several things about Christianity, but thats for another day.. :sm12:)..

v-

mathangikkumar
07-20-2007, 08:47 AM
I read some of the discussions and others just skimmed thro'.
What I feel is there is no hard and fast rule and it is all a matter of convenience.
Those days people in villages thronged the temples due to various reasons.
1. No migration all were in the same village. Most of them were Hindus area wise.
secondly there was no other entertainment. The only entertainment was visiting temples. Temples are the common places of worship. Due to the wide area space lot of fresh air circulating and performing poojas brought Positive energy and vibration. This is good for those who visited to get that energy.
Going around the temple [ prathkshinam] was a kind of exercise, climbing the steps exercise to the knees; .
Because of god fearing people, the topics were mostly on religion, faith and discourses were held.
The prasadam offered was made of pure ingredientswithout any adulteration

Adorning one's forehead with vibuti was compulsory. It has its effect also. the fore head nerves reach the brain and it enhances one's thinking and further more you can '' VASIYAPADUTHALAM''.


[For example you can see it with ladies like, Brinda karat, Sushma swaraj, Margaret alwa, Renuka chowdri etc. Even J.Jayalalithaaa can start so that all will be cowed down. ]


It has been proved the other person keeps l;ooking at your foreheadit is a kind of mesmorising.
It is all in one's belief.

Visiting temple Xians and muslims atleast on specific days go and pray but the hindus go a s per their convenience . So also praying in front of god. At some homes only the elders do it, small children are neither taughtto it nor have interest to do it. Anointing vibuti and other things have become a mockery in hindi movies, if at all they want to show south indian it is only tamilians with pattai vibuti and butler hindi. It is laughing matter.

mathangikkumar
07-20-2007, 08:48 AM
I read some of the discussions and others just skimmed thro'.
What I feel is there is no hard and fast rule and it is all a matter of convenience.
Those days people in villages thronged the temples due to various reasons.
1. No migration all were in the same village. Most of them were Hindus area wise.
secondly there was no other entertainment. The only entertainment was visiting temples. Temples are the common places of worship. Due to the wide area space lot of fresh air circulating and performing poojas brought Positive energy and vibration. This is good for those who visited to get that energy.
Going around the temple [ prathkshinam] was a kind of exercise, climbing the steps exercise to the knees; .
Because of god fearing people, the topics were mostly on religion, faith and discourses were held.
The prasadam offered was made of pure ingredientswithout any adulteration

Adorning one's forehead with vibuti was compulsory. It has its effect also. the fore head nerves reach the brain and it enhances one's thinking and further more you can '' VASIYAPADUTHALAM''.


[For example you can see it with ladies like, Brinda karat, Sushma swaraj, Margaret alwa, Renuka chowdri etc. Even J.Jayalalithaaa can start so that all will be cowed down. ]


It has been proved the other person keeps l;ooking at your foreheadit is a kind of mesmorising.
It is all in one's belief.

Visiting temple Xians and muslims atleast on specific days go and pray but the hindus go a s per their convenience . So also praying in front of god. At some homes only the elders do it, small children are neither taughtto it nor have interest to do it. Anointing vibuti and other things have become a mockery in hindi movies, if at all they want to show south indian it is only tamilians with pattai vibuti and butler hindi. It is laughing matter.
As far as eating non veg it is individuals taste.