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Comenaughty
11-13-2003, 12:07 AM
hi all,
last 1 year, politicians have been trying to pass a bill for 33% reservation for women in every possible avenue..... but on the other side, women claim to be equal to men in all respects..... reservation....equality..... dont u think thers a fundamental discrepancy???? definitely one of them is wrong.....which one..... help me identify.....

a very confused naughty

vasan
11-13-2003, 12:15 AM
Men and Wome are Equal. All men and women are created equal (ie. there is no partiality in the way the Law treats men and women). Ofcourse each are biologically different - but no less than the other in any aspect.

Reservation is so that the mistakes done in the past (where equality was withheld) will be corrected and the mind set of the people will accept equality as common as sun rise and sun set. Until that time some proactive measures from the Govt and society should help in correcting the injustice already done.

At least thats the idea. Does it work? Is it efficient? What percentage would be better? How long? These are questions to argue. Hopefully people would all come to some reasonable conclusions.

From the reasonable guy !

Vasan

:) he.. he.. pattam naanagave koduthathu... It should actually read as the guy who wants to be reasonable. If I can be that, I will be pretty pleased..

sri_gan
11-13-2003, 12:38 AM
Men and Wome are Equal. All men and women are created equal (ie. there is no partiality in the way the Law treats men and women). Ofcourse each are biologically different - but no less than the other in any aspect.

Reservation is so that the mistakes done in the past (where equality was withheld) will be corrected and the mind set of the people will accept equality as common as sun rise and sun set. Until that time some proactive measures from the Govt and society should help in correcting the injustice already done.

At least thats the idea. Does it work? Is it efficient? What percentage would be better? How long? These are questions to argue. Hopefully people would all come to some reasonable conclusions.

From the reasonable guy !

Vasan

:) he.. he.. pattam naanagave koduthathu... It should actually read as the guy who wants to be reasonable. If I can be that, I will be pretty pleased..

Main track kku late a varen.

Pure Side track:::

:lol: Ippadi ellam pattam koduthukitta entha ponnum thirumbi kuda pakathu.... Usually they think its the weakness in a guy...:ee:. Nee aadu... unakku naan sonnathu than...

Comenaughty
11-13-2003, 01:05 AM
well vasan,
the quota system based on castes was started i beleive on the same line as u mentioned..... but wats happnd now...... its virtually ripped apart the society and it has done more harm than good...... dont u think there wud be one more blot by this reservtion in india's governance??

naughty

sabeshan
11-13-2003, 04:30 AM
Well reservation of any type is not a wise thing to do... nalla padikkaravanga yaara irundhaalum avangala padikka vekkanum... urchagam kodukkanum.... idhai govt purinjukkittanganna probs varaadhu...

katteri
11-14-2003, 02:05 AM
I c in uk the government operates under equal oppurtunity policy which most of the developed nation adopt....
but the congress which ruled india for 50 years ....has made india to progress in all fields at snails pace....This govt is highly dynamic.. i dont want to name an institution (post graduate).. they have been sanctioned by govt of india for 8 crore rupess to develop and analyse models for rockets and space vehicles...mostly doen by students .unfortunately i missed that experience.....

katteri
11-14-2003, 02:08 AM
valamana india vukku

etharku othukeedu.....if u dont have reservation it s chance for everyone...

sabeshan
11-14-2003, 02:22 AM
Moreover, isnt it like humiliating the 'backward castes' that you ppl cant score any more marks, so pozhachchu ponga... 290 edukka vendaam 150 edutha podhum MBBS seat kodukkaren... isnt it vilifying them? they shud themselves come forward and say that they are against it

katteri
11-15-2003, 07:37 PM
Moreover, isnt it like humiliating the 'backward castes' that you ppl cant score any more marks, so pozhachchu ponga... 290 edukka vendaam 150 edutha podhum MBBS seat kodukkaren... isnt it vilifying them? they shud themselves come forward and say that they are against it
ORU THAN APPADI SOLLATTUM NAN EN THALIAYA EDUTHKIREN... YARUM SOLA MATARKAL...BOCS THEY WREE USED 2 IT.. :lol: :lol: .RUSI KANDA POONAI... NAN ,,,NEE YARUM SOLLO MATOM....RULE HAS TO BE CHNAGES BY RULE....ONLY... :nono:

arumugam57
11-15-2003, 08:19 PM
Kannugalaaa!!
We should not talk about problamatic things here. Please avoid.
Here the topic is about reservation for woman. We should not go beyond the limit. Some people may get offended. Then I will get bunch of PMs to delete all those posts. So Why risk?

dinesh
11-15-2003, 10:24 PM
This positive discrimination things are one of the stupid things ever to be discovered by man. We have the same thing in Sri Lanka for university admissions too. People in some districts need to score half the marks as some people who might be in another district.
This actually makes people less intelligent in the longer run as they will always aim for the 50% mark, and will not learn more. Instead of this stupid system, governments should spend more on the educational system in these areas and set them on an equal footing as the rest.
I think same goes with the backward/forward castes in India too. Accepted the Dalits were wronged in the past, but what should be done is to improve the quality of education in their areas, instead of lowering their target marks, which only diminishes their intelligence in the longer run.

Comenaughty
11-16-2003, 02:16 AM
Reservation is so that the mistakes done in the past (where equality was withheld) will be corrected and the mind set of the people will accept equality as common as sun rise and sun set. Until that time some proactive measures from the Govt and society should help in correcting the injustice already done


vasan,
one more point..... not only in india, all over the world, women did not ensoi equal rights as men..... but majority of the countries did not follow the principle of reservation.....also, theres a problem attached with reservation....say, the 33% reservation comes in to place for upliftment of women....and 50 yrs later, we find that women r there in every place where men had occupied..... do u think at that point of time, its possible for the govt to scrap the reservation...? impossible.... it will continue on and on....instead, if thats the case, y doesnt the govt wait for the transtion (women enjoying the same platform as men) to take place naturally..... they are as talented as we r or in fact in some cases they r more talented in some places.....

so, i feel the women who support the cause of reservation, shud according to me called "inferior" to men.... if they feel they have the talent, they can come up naturally..... a reservation isnt required!!

comments?
naughty

sabeshan
11-16-2003, 06:11 AM
Moreover, isnt it like humiliating the 'backward castes' that you ppl cant score any more marks, so pozhachchu ponga... 290 edukka vendaam 150 edutha podhum MBBS seat kodukkaren... isnt it vilifying them? they shud themselves come forward and say that they are against it



Exactly adhe point a thaan naanum sollirundhen.... paarunga ennoda post a

Comenaughty
11-16-2003, 06:19 AM
sabeshan,
the topic here isnt reservation among castes..... as 6face put it, its a sensitive topic as 10 ppl will have 20 different opinions and it will only result in conflict and unneccesary in fighting among geetham member.... so i request u to post on women reservation bill and not on any othher reservation.....

thanx
naughty

sabeshan
11-16-2003, 06:48 AM
Ok matter solved wrong panniten baa tension aavaatheenga... back to topic varuvom... I AM AGAINST WOMEN'S RESERVATION!!!

katteri
11-17-2003, 01:12 PM
Sorry maakalle we r away from the topic....

vennai1
11-17-2003, 10:14 PM
Women's reservation need to be there atleast for next 5 years...

women are already coming out of their social shackles.

I am sure reservation will provide enough help to them to

achieve higher standards in life. :clap: :clap: :b:



Reservation is a workable idea... but it must not be taken for

granted. Because of reservation many backward class people

and tribal people have come up in life. Same logic applies to women. :b:

anainar
11-17-2003, 10:28 PM
Women are under represented in legislature and is a fact. They seem to be catching up with jobs in other fields, education etc, but legislature is still man's strong hold. I am all for 33 %reservation for women.

But still I am not sure whether having one third women will really help women's cause. If the Govt machinery is not geared up properly, all the good work of the legislature will go in the drains. So there has to be a consensus on who can use the reservation and who should not. Only then the real issues faced by women will be solved. Else it will be like our current reservation. Even after 56 years of independence, the reservation has not reached the real needy people, since it is being taken away by the affluent members of the reserved community. The writers of the Constitution assumed those who availed reservation will help to bring their communite up, but they are all so keen on bringig theirs sons/daughter up rather than the needy ones.

I had a friend when I was in IIT, Madras. His father became a Dr because of reservation. This guy had the best education facilities, but still entered IIT, Madras on reservation. I am sure his son will also get in by reservation. This is totally unreasonable and should not be repeated in case of women.

Cheers.

Comenaughty
11-17-2003, 11:40 PM
I had a friend when I was in IIT, Madras. His father became a Dr because of reservation. This guy had the best education facilities, but still entered IIT, Madras on reservation. I am sure his son will also get in by reservation. This is totally unreasonable and should not be repeated in case of women.


anainar,
thats the biggest problem with reservation.... once u get a rule in which favors a part of the community, its very very tough to scrap it..... u mite be knowing about the happening with respect to pension which was given by the state govt.... and the relatd fiasco after that.... once a rule comes in to place, its very tough to remove....


Women's reservation need to be there atleast for next 5 years...


and im strongly against vennai's 5 year policy....it will NEVER work out in a country like india..... think abt the practicality of such a rule.....i dont c any

naughty

anainar
11-17-2003, 11:58 PM
I agree that the policy has its negative aspects, but it is something that we the community has to come up with a solution. We Indians are normally addicted to concessions. We want only pay raises every year, but no pay cuts or pay freezes. Only subsidies, but cannot live without it. The govt has to provide anything and everything. Poor people has the right to take away a portion of the rich guys, and the rich guys have no choice, even thought they pay Income Tax on their earning. This mindset has to go, then things will fall in place.

But 5 years is too short a peroid to achive some social changes. We need to see one generation atleast.

Cheers.

anitam
11-24-2003, 09:00 PM
ponnunga munnerita ungalluku avallavu kashtama... unga amma, wife unglavida nalla nelamaila irunthale thangadhu .. ithulla women reservation -ku ok va solla poringa..

enna reservaton kuduthu ennapadichu, enna vella senchallu.. orunal karandi pudichu purushanukku samaikrathuthan ponoda thalai ezhuthu.

selpra
11-24-2003, 09:07 PM
I would say men and women are equal, according to me they should not give 33% or any type of percentage like this.

vasan
11-24-2003, 09:07 PM
ponnunga munnerita ungalluku avallavu kashtama... unga amma, wife unglavida nalla nelamaila irunthale thangadhu .. ithulla women reservation -ku ok va solla poringa..

enna reservaton kuduthu ennapadichu, enna vella senchallu.. orunal karandi pudichu purushanukku samaikrathuthan ponoda thalai ezhuthu.

Why? Why is this their 'thalai ezhuthu?' Change has to happen - and reservations etc (even for short time span) is a only a stimulus for a social order change. No one gains by women resigning up to their 'fate' or be limiting them to some roles in the society.

Also, it is really not justified to think that men can't handle if their mom or sister or wife does better than them.. Not every men think like that - nor do the women willing if their partner is less than their equal. Social change is very important.

ashokcsn_2000
11-24-2003, 09:41 PM
oru pakkam equal rightsum venum innuru pakkam reservation enna paaa koothu ithu
ashok

vasan
11-24-2003, 09:49 PM
Reservations are the first step towards achieving the equal rights... If a law can change people's attitude overnight, no one would ask for such a 'reservation'. The social change takes time, and to achieve that goal eventually, Govt/society/laws have to be made that will permit 'forced' alterations in the way things are now. That is precisely what reservation is all about. When that change is already present in the minds of people, we won't have any need for these policies of 'reservation'.

Why does this sound 'koothu' to you?

Shy
11-24-2003, 09:53 PM
I second vasan in this... Why anitam... not every men on earth will fume with jealous'ly seeing their sister, wife or mom in a better poistion than they are. I wont accept generalizing man community as such here.

Also I agree that woman had to cook for her family.. but that doesnt mean even though shes a great scientist or scholar, she has to leave that job and be a housewife to cook. There are men who appreciate the talent in their wife and allow them to have a career life too. Neenga solrathai paatha.. there wont be any working women at all. but the recent statistics show that there is a rise in working women. Nowadays most husbands share the cooking burden with their wives and help them with stuff. They are not hitlers.

So I wont accept the "thalai yaeluthu" u had mention at all.

Shy

Shy
11-24-2003, 09:57 PM
oru pakkam equal rightsum venum innuru pakkam reservation enna paaa koothu ithu
ashok

Enna koothu iruku.. nalaikae.. women and men are equal appadinu law pootutaanga'nu vachupoom..

Example, 10 government job available iruku... women - 5 and men -5... How many men will accept this??? Can the society dijest and accept that women are equal, so namba avangalukku half of the job oppurtunity kudukalaamnu will it think..

Athaan... sari first reservations mathiri slight change kudukalaam, then will proceed in a positive way'nu they are having the concept of reservations..

got it?

Shy

vasan
11-24-2003, 10:06 PM
Yes. Nice example Shy...

But notice the loop hole though: Equal rights do not mean that Govt has to employ one woman for every man they do. Its more like in the selection process there will be no questions about your sex. No preference. That means if among the qualified candidates, if the best 90% are women, so be it. Or if all of them are men, so be it also. No arguments -there. Same parameters will be used to judge/select any one irrespective of their sex.

But so far we can't select women in the same parameters as men, because we have failed to give them same conditions to groom their skills. That means, society has been keeping them low artificially and to correct that, we need forcibly adopt some policies, like reservation. Once every body, irrespective of their economic, social and other condition has the same opportunity and facility available, reservations will become meaningless..

Until that time, I think we need to give all the help we can to Women. In fact, I thing we should be proud if more women take up administration, and more top level jobs. We will only fare better.... Why should we waste the talent and ingenuity of one half of the population??

Shy
11-24-2003, 10:27 PM
Ok vasan, I got it...equals meaning talent matters right??? ok...

But still oru question... this 33% is only for assembly right.. some rajasabha something... not for every possible career path.. right??

Shy

dinesh
11-24-2003, 10:39 PM
No way the so-called positive discrimination is going to bring equality. It will only create an illusion to show there is equality, but the situation will continue to worsen.
The classic example is the caste allocations in various fields in TN. Can you name even one field where it has worked without any problems? These days even to get a caste certificate one has to bribe the officials. It's that worse, the system.
For all the aspiring feminists out there, try to acheive your goals without any favouring. There is no point in claiming victory if you don't run an equal race. If women do get the 33% representation bill passed, it'll only serve to show that they need some kind of help and cannot compete in an even playing field.

vasan
11-24-2003, 10:45 PM
hi.. nalla maattikitten..

Indha reservations yedhukkunnu theriyavillai, Shy. I originally thought its for all Govt jobs, and for most private jobs as well. But after reading your post, I do recollect reading about the reservation being only for Assembly/Parliament members... I think you are right.

It funny, isn't it? The second longest-term in PMs was served by a Woman. There are several states where women are chief ministers... yet, as such we really haven't achieved any where near equality for women.

I don't really know if even reservations will work. But we must try all possible avenues. Thats is my view on this...

Bit pensively and bit more thoughtfully,

Vasan

king_143
11-24-2003, 10:54 PM
I c in uk the government operates under equal oppurtunity policy which most of the developed nation adopt....
but the congress which ruled india for 50 years ....has made india to progress in all fields at snails pace....This govt is highly dynamic.. i dont want to name an institution (post graduate).. they have been sanctioned by govt of india for 8 crore rupess to develop and analyse models for rockets and space vehicles...mostly doen by students .unfortunately i missed that experience.....


Katteri enna MIT le seat kadaikalia, enaku ECE seat in one of our prestigious institute le miss ayirchu.

Womens reservation is required but it should not be made by occupying the open quota seats but it should be made within the already exisisting caste based reservation system in our country.
i.e reserve 33% of SC,ST,BC ... to Women of that particular division.

Let atleast some real good fellas and fellis to come up (irrespective of any damn thing he or she is from) . other wise we will have people who have reservations in knowledge or quota of knowledge than required.


And as far as the reservation system is concerned I am for it, if it has this modification, only one generation of a family can use this quota ( irrespective of where it is used , in any field be it polics or employement or education or ...) effective from independence. And any unfilled seats would be alloted to open-quota in case of education sector. This would not only protect our brothers and sisters (whom our elders have once discriminated , and some form us ) being discriminated by their own so-called protectors/leaders, it also will give a releif to the open-quota people. And also teach them to be competative.

ashokcsn_2000
11-24-2003, 10:55 PM
Example, 10 government job available iruku... women - 5 and men -5... How many men will accept this???

naan sonnathai neega purinjikkave illai. naan sollarathu ennana there should be no reservations at all no 50-50 or 33-67 ppadi reservation kuduthaaa mattum magalir freedom vanthudumaaa?
ellam open to all a irukkanum athula yaar munnukku varaangalo vanthukattum. eppovum ippadi vara freedom thaan nelaichu irukkum.
ashok