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sofiadorathy
11-25-2003, 05:12 AM
Hello Geetham Members...Here is the Patti Mandram topic for u all....

I wish every one to participate and bring this Patti Mandram more active than the previous one...Later I will announce that when Im going to post the results....

Thank u

Bye Bye

Be Happy.....

:ahha: :yes: :b:

balaiitm
11-25-2003, 06:55 AM
Yes absolutely. In India, proving 100% guilty and all very difficult. What happened in Navarasu's case in way back 1996. Mere proof say 50-75% is enough to punish anyone. I fully support for YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

truepenny
11-25-2003, 07:13 AM
YES! YES! YES!

Its always not easy toprove 100% of the guilt. But if the jurors & law inds a person significantly guilty, and if the person is not fit to be part of society, YES he needs the death penalty.

Why risk the rest of the society? A life sentence is not enough. I strongly stand for death penalty.

sabeshan
11-25-2003, 07:26 AM
While it may be easy for the accused to get away just on the basis that the law demands proof of his involvement in the crime, it will become harder in case it is modeled on the lines of the U.S. Justice system - the accused will have to prove his innocence rather than the other side trying to prove his involvement.

sweetie
11-25-2003, 08:00 AM
I think I wud say *No* to the main query...

Simple reason being, awarding Death penalty in the court and executing the verdict is not going to stop people from commiting the same crime or lesser / higher harmful crimes...

And a person who shows no remorse for his actions will not show any kinda emotional disturbances too while being executed.... Where does one instill fear in the mind of a Criminal ??? I am sure Death penalty is what it takes to do that... take the recent example... John Allen Muhammed and Malvo trial in the US ... the Jury passed the death penalty verdict... and US is one the countries in the world leading in Death Penalties and Executions... Still those two guys (one is a teenager) went ahead and shot dead arnd 10 people and injured about a dozen more... surely the people of that country know that there was something called as Death penalty.... So u see.... It aint going to do any good for the society, neither does it prove ineffective... Ofcourse there are some who are turned away from Crime at the thought of receiving a death penalty... but what about the others ??? After all It takes just one man to kill atleast 10 People these days, with the amount of technological advancements in the name of weapons....

So what is the solution ??? Rather I wud prefer a psychological approach to teaching a lesson to the criminals.... Put them in solitary confinement and attack their emotions... Make sure they feel and realise what Loneliness is all about... Make then feel what "Loss" means to one self... Whether it be a loss of life or the loss in contact with ur fellow human beings...

I think, Mankind can take death, since its part of life.... But I dun think many (majority of Humans) can take loss in contact or communication with ur fellow human beings all that well... that way U can instill in the mind of the criminal the true value of life and true value of ur acts..... and also make sure that they get it across to him !!!!

More after other response.... Have fun !!! Cheers...

dinesh
11-25-2003, 10:08 AM
I will say 'No'.

Firstly, no other human beings have the right to take someone else's life. Even if it is a judge or members of the jury.

Secondly, what is the point of having capital punishment? Is there any use from it? Apart from the satisfaction of exacting revenge, I see no other point in sentencing somebody to death.

Thirdly, the arguments of criminals getting afraid by the death sentence is not valid, as we are seeing more and more murders these days, with the murderers without any fear.

So, I might've agreed with capital punishment if there has been some good results out of it. But we see none.



Yes absolutely. In India, proving 100% guilty and all very difficult. What happened in Navarasu's case in way back 1996. Mere proof say 50-75% is enough to punish anyone. I fully support for YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!

What's your point bala, you are not supporting your view with any arguments. There no point in just baying for someone else's blood, without any reason.



Its always not easy toprove 100% of the guilt. But if the jurors & law inds a person significantly guilty, and if the person is not fit to be part of society, YES he needs the death penalty.

If someone is not fit to be part of a society, he can be put in jail for life. And I mean life, not just 25 years. What is the need for the death sentence?

lodestar
11-25-2003, 10:35 AM
well it is true that no one has the right to take any other person's life..but you are not going to take the life of a mahatma or mother teresa..you are just going to punish a third rate criminal for his ruthless action.. laws are made only for governing the life of every individual so if someone intentionally crosses the limits he/she should be definitely punished with death sentence

i just came across two posts by our other two friends...



the arguments of criminals getting afraid by the death sentence is not valid, as we are seeing more and more murders these days, with the murderers without any fear.


Death sentence is the highest degree of punishment ...if no one is afraid for it then how can it be expected that punishements like life sentencing will yield some favourable results??



a psychological approach to teaching a lesson to the criminals....
Put them in solitary confinement and attack their emotions...
Make sure they feel and realise what Loneliness is all about


same answer to the previous quote



If someone is not fit to be part of a society, he can be put in jail for life.
And I mean life, not just 25 years. What is the need for the death sentence?


yes he is going to spend the rest of his life in prison but how will it be a lesson to the other criminals like him outside the jail?

cheers
lodestar

sofiadorathy
11-25-2003, 10:47 AM
While it may be easy for the accused to get away just on the basis that the law demands proof of his involvement in the crime, it will become harder in case it is modeled on the lines of the U.S. Justice system - the accused will have to prove his innocence rather than the other side trying to prove his involvement.


So Sbeshan what ru trying to say.....to whom ur voting to....u havent mentioned any ting before u start ur arguement......Do u know the rules....A Person who starts to talk about a particular topic must say about which he is going to talk....I mean what u have choosen in the poll...Please in next post try to follow that...thank u....

Be Happy....

sofiadorathy
11-25-2003, 10:53 AM
So what is the point in ur quote Lodester.....Just read the previous post i wrote for sabeshan....

Thank u

Be Happy....

sweetie
11-25-2003, 11:35 AM
LODESTER

As u say, if no one is afraid with death sentences, then by putting them in Jail for life does not mean that others are going to get afraid..... And if no one is going to get afraid to *ANY* laws that govern a society, then there is no point in having a death sentence or a Life sentence... Both wud boil down to the same !!!

The point is By giving a Life sentence to a criminal, without bail for instance, u r isolating him from the society, which in turn will surelyt have an effect on the individual... By the way, Hope u wud remember that EVEN THE GREAT MAHATMA was given a IMPROMPTU DEATH SENTENCE by SOMEONE who thought that Mahatma was not fit for the society and that he has done more harm than good ..... Godse took it upon himself the rule of the land and the laws of Jusitce and Put an end the GREAT MAHATMA's life !!!! What wud u say for that ????

But If Godse took the life of the great Mahatma, what good is it going to do by taking the life of Godse ??? Do U mean to say that, that Executing Godse will in any way try to answer the death of the Mahatma ???? No way ....

Everyone knows that Murders n Robberies and Rapes are on the rise by the day .... and that no one is afraid of whatever goddamn laws that exist in this world... Be it national or international laws..... So doesnt really matter as to whether u give a death sentence... Rather, as one of the viewers posted, and as I had said previously, Give him a Life sentence, and put him in Solitary confinement.... LET WATEVER THIRD RATE CRIMINAL A PERSON BE, Even he will have people who are near and dear to him in the society, and I am sure he will get out his remorse when he is far far away from them in terms of contact and communication....

And as u wud be knowing, NO INDIVIDUAL HAS ANY RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY THE LIFE OF ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL.... Hell doesnt matter whether u r a Policeman / Judge / Jury ......

sofiadorathy
11-25-2003, 11:40 AM
Well Well Well Sweetie great point of attraction....

Hey Members can u all see this Here is the next Comenaughty and Shy...

Wow...I m sure now that this topic will be good than the previous topic...Lol...

And Sweetie Pls wait for other two teams to Argue...Till that its ur Break.......

Be Happy....

katteri
11-25-2003, 12:39 PM
Hi all
First i like to clarify what is proven 100 % guilty and what is not proven 100 % guilty?.If the topic is related to Indian constitution its framed in such a way that those whoare proven guilty can only be punished (whether its life sentence or a year imprisonment).Most of victims escape from benefit of doubt.In general i would support death sentence for crime against children and women, corruption for politician.
Death sentence is a must.
Laws are formulated so that we live in a highly disciplined way.Unless the rules are strict people commit mistakes.Most of u s know we are doing mistakes but we repeat it until we are caught....
'' A convicted victim is an example for others ,of how one should not lead such a life''

sweetie
11-25-2003, 12:44 PM
'' A convicted victim is an example for others ,of how one should not lead such a life''

True... A convicted individual shud serve as an example to others.... That does'nt mean a Convicted individual who is executed by a Death sentence will be alone a living example...

He can also be a LIVING EXAMPLE OF A CONVICTED INDIVIDUAL !!!!

Afterall who are we (As mere mortal human beings) to take the life of others ????

What do U mean by *Unless the rules are strict, people commit mistakes* ???? Do U mean to say that the CURRENT LAWS OF OUR NATIONS AND THE WORLD are not being held in Strict Implementation ???? Come on..... Think again !!!

dinesh
11-25-2003, 12:45 PM
Everybody who is in support of the death sentence is just keeping on saying, it is a must etc., but are not giving us any arguments to support it.

What I can't see is the real use of death senence compared to life sentence. Stop this attitude of taking revenge and think clearly people

sweetie
11-25-2003, 12:47 PM
Yep Shidinesh.... *stop this attitude of taking revenge* is the way to put it.... cant be in a more clear perspective I guess... I wud second that...

lodestar
11-25-2003, 01:03 PM
As u say, if no one is afraid with death sentences


friend i did not say that ..it was ur view thatz why i quoted what you had stated as your opinion on the top..and gave a reply to it..in my previous post

well i made a quote of this


the arguments of criminals getting afraid by the death sentence is not valid, as we are seeing more and more murders these days, with the murderers without any fear.


and i had a reply to it that death sentence is highest degree of punishment if you state that itself will not be effective then how will the other punishments be favourable...? referring the quote ..ok?



Do U mean to say that, that Executing Godse will in any way try to answer the death of the Mahatma ????


executing godse will not answer the death of mahatma but it will put an end to such similiar occurence in future..instead of searching the answer of the dead we should aim to protect the existing..

suppose in a college or institution if a student commits a big mistake and the management takes a action of debaring him/her from the college..the management is well aware that it will spoil the career of the accused student but it goes on with its decision to atleast keep up the disciplne among the other students who study there...so that such kind of practice does not happen in future...others will have a fear that they would have to face the same situation if they misbehave and try to be within limits...

similarly if the convict is given the highest degree of punishment by the jury..it will be a lesson for others



Give him a Life sentence, and put him in Solitary confinement.... LET WATEVER THIRD RATE CRIMINAL A PERSON BE

it is not sure that he is going to change himself after the life sentence..and howcome it will be a lesson to others? but if he is executed that will induce a fear in others

cheers

sweetie
11-25-2003, 01:11 PM
** executing godse will not answer the death of mahatma but it will put an end to such similiar occurence in future.. ** -- From Lodester

Dear buddy... Have u forgotten wat happened to the Likes of Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi ????? ;) ;) ;)

Guess the *future* which U have mentioned is not yet here !!!! ;)

sweetie
11-25-2003, 01:12 PM
EVEN THOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDRED' OF EXECUTIONS, Still people keep doing the same old Crimes right ???? Then how do U say that by executing people, that will induce a fear in others ?????

madhu_aish1
11-25-2003, 01:41 PM
A nice and touchy topic to discuss . Here comes my part of argument.. :b:

First of all . the poll should have only 2 options. "yes" or "No". What does 100% guilty means :think: :think: . As per many countries law. The defendant is looked as Not guilty . It is the necessity of prosecution to prove guiltiness with records and Proofs. Until proved and convinced he can't be convicted. So 100% guilty doesn't make sense to me..

Now to the actual topic. I would strongly say a "No" to death penalty. The value of Human Life needs to be respected at any cost. It is not a chemical process to make it reversible.

In today's world where money rules people, where corruption exists in all levels..it is possible for a person who is not guilty to be convicted. There have been incidents reported about misjudgements which have costed lives.. Everyone needs to accept .."To Err is Human".. I wont disagree that there are people out there who most certainly deserve death, I'm just stating that I'd hate to be one of the people to decide his or her fate. My reason - what if I'm wrong?


Many will quote, 'The Bible says, "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life." They will go into the Law of Moses and bolster their views through the various passages that declare that the law of God supports it. But Look at this tooo..As Mahatma gandhi said, "An eye for an eye will only serve to make the whole world blind."

Capital punishment is not the answer. It is not a solution to crime. It is merely a 'bandaid' solution to a festering wound upon the soul of society. It doesn't stop crime, it doesn't curb crime. Killing on either side of the law is still killing. It only serves to further the shedding of blood, and inflaming the underlying rage that society bears at present. Capital punishment isn't about justice, or restitution. It's about vengeance and revenge.

Pro-capital punishment pundits would give away statistics in support of capital punishment For example surveys like these.... 'Do you support capital punishment?' many will answer in the affirmative. ......Ironically , reframe them and ask , 'Do you support capital punishment, or would you support alternatives' .If an alternative choice is given then public support for capital punishment would definetely plummet like todays stock Market :lol: :lol: .


I hope I have put down some of my points here. I dont wanna exhaust too much...

By the time i completed this posting . I have gulped 3 cans of bud-weiser .. :ee: :ee: I know it is felony for "Driving under Influence of alcohol" but not a big crime posting under influence of alcohol... :ahha:
Gotto catch sleep..

Looking for more heated arguments. danks to sofia for a nice topic..

Madhu

lodestar
11-25-2003, 02:37 PM
EVEN THOUGH THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDRED' OF EXECUTIONS, Still people keep doing the same old Crimes right ???? Then how do U say that by executing people, that will induce a fear in others ?????


if you say the highest degree of punishment ie deatth sentence is itself not favourable then how will less degree punishments prove useful to restrict crimes?????????

sweetie
11-25-2003, 02:47 PM
The point is not about the degree of punishment... If u luk at it that way, DO U KNOW THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN REHABILITATED AND SENT OUT ON BAIL JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE SERVING LIFE SENTENCES, AND HALF WAY THROUGH THEY FELT BAD FOR WHAT THEY DID, AND FINALLY ENDED UP DOING SOCIAL SERVICE ????

Now that, I think, is a more effective / reasonable solution to dealing with criminals instead of taking away their life and not giving them a chance to feel sorry for what they did !!!

Theres nothing more in life for an individual other than to have time to think about his misdeeds and do something to erase those bad memories....

PS., CAPS is just to make a point... nothing else !!!

selpra
11-25-2003, 02:56 PM
Death penality should be given to person who take others life! there is nothing wrong if death penality is given to such type of person,if he is found guilty he should be sentenced to death, nothing wrong in it!!!

katteri
11-25-2003, 03:41 PM
'' A convicted victim is an example for others ,of how one should not lead such a life''

True... A convicted individual shud serve as an example to others.... That does'nt mean a Convicted individual who is executed by a Death sentence will be alone a living example...

He can also be a LIVING EXAMPLE OF A CONVICTED INDIVIDUAL !!!!

Afterall who are we (As mere mortal human beings) to take the life of others ????

What do U mean by *Unless the rules are strict, people commit mistakes* ???? Do U mean to say that the CURRENT LAWS OF OUR NATIONS AND THE WORLD are not being held in Strict Implementation ???? Come on..... Think again !!!
s OF COURSE OUR CURRENT LAWS ARE NOT STRINGENT.....u CAN SHOW ME N NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DOESNT FEAR FOR ANYTHING OR ANYONE ... BUT U CANT FIND A PERSON WHO DOESNT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH....(IF U COULD FIND ONE PLEASE LET ME KNOW-AND MY HEARTIEST CONGRATULATIONS TO HIM ALSO)...
Fear of death not only makes criminals to think b4 they act but also saves the common man.For instance , in schoolings (either 10 th or+2) if u have been caught of copying u ll be debared from the examination...So oru payam irukanum thappu seiyaa koodathunnu,...

katteri
11-25-2003, 03:44 PM
A nice and touchy topic to discuss . Here comes my part of argument.. :b:

First of all . the poll should have only 2 options. "yes" or "No". What does 100% guilty means :think: :think: . As per many countries law. The defendant is looked as Not guilty . It is the necessity of prosecution to prove guiltiness with records and Proofs. Until proved and convinced he can't be convicted. So 100% guilty doesn't make sense to me..
MadhuGood comment madhu
Thats what i said in my earlier whats 100 % guilty and 80% guilty..Sofia pls explain

krishng
11-25-2003, 04:32 PM
YES YES..

death penality is good for society. after this I dont want to argue on this topic becos of no time. So meet all you people in next pattimandram.

good topic fosia.

-Krishng.

suryalover
11-26-2003, 12:54 AM
As far as I am concerned when the tamils are given death sentence for assasination of Rajeev I felt that is a punishment that is too much..

But when kashmir terrorists who bombed parliament awarded death sentence I felt that is correct...

So the basis for what they had done the wrong thing matters in deciding the death sentence....

lodestar
11-26-2003, 02:08 AM
Stop this attitude of taking revenge and think clearly people


To build a good society there is no wrong in supporting death penalty..and it is given to someone who deserves it... so how come it is a revenge taking attitude friend?

sweetie
11-26-2003, 02:24 AM
'' A convicted victim is an example for others ,of how one should not lead such a life''

True... A convicted individual shud serve as an example to others.... That does'nt mean a Convicted individual who is executed by a Death sentence will be alone a living example...

He can also be a LIVING EXAMPLE OF A CONVICTED INDIVIDUAL !!!!

Afterall who are we (As mere mortal human beings) to take the life of others ????

What do U mean by *Unless the rules are strict, people commit mistakes* ???? Do U mean to say that the CURRENT LAWS OF OUR NATIONS AND THE WORLD are not being held in Strict Implementation ???? Come on..... Think again !!!
s OF COURSE OUR CURRENT LAWS ARE NOT STRINGENT.....u CAN SHOW ME N NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO DOESNT FEAR FOR ANYTHING OR ANYONE ... BUT U CANT FIND A PERSON WHO DOESNT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH....(IF U COULD FIND ONE PLEASE LET ME KNOW-AND MY HEARTIEST CONGRATULATIONS TO HIM ALSO)...
Fear of death not only makes criminals to think b4 they act but also saves the common man.For instance , in schoolings (either 10 th or+2) if u have been caught of copying u ll be debared from the examination...So oru payam irukanum thappu seiyaa koodathunnu,...

EVERY SINGLE (so-called) TERRORIST (because they call themself freedom fighters, fighting for their right to live in a place of their own) WHO DIES ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH

EVERY SINGLE CHECHEN REBEL WHO TOOK HOSTAGES IN A MOSCOW THEATRE ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH !!

EVERY SINGLE HIJACKER WHO CRASHED INTO THE WTC ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH

EVERY SINGLE KASHMIRI INSURGENT WHO STORMED THE PARLIAMENT ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH!!!

EVERY SINGLE SOMALIAN CIVILIAN WHO FOUGHT AGAINST THE US in 1993 / 1994 (for reference, the Black Hawk Down incident) ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH !!!

Look closely and u will find that fighting against such people / executing them by a death penalty is not going to do any good, coz there are many more waiting to get to the frontlines.... And Even before U wud give them a death sentence and take away their life, they wud have been dead !!! Can U understand ????

Dont talk about people not having fear of death in this world.... The current world is full of people who dont have fear of death and those who are willing to do whatever it needs to even live a life for single second peacefully.....

There is no point in comparing a school punishment for copying / a criminal .... that dusnt make any sense whatsoever......

The fear of death does not make people like the ones I mentioned think... Rather It wud make them more hard becoz they know that anyway they are going to die... whether it be by a suicide belt bomb or by the guns of a execution squad !!!! So all that matters to them is why not complete their job before they die in whatever way !!

Death Sentence is NOT GOING TO DO ANY GOOD, least being taking away the life of a human being .......... Which I THINK, We as fellow human beings, and mere mortals, DONT HAVE THE RIGHT TO !!!!!

king_143
11-26-2003, 02:28 AM
I dont agree with DEATH penality as a punishment. But for those who are eligible by their deeds should be isolated till death.

sweetie
11-26-2003, 02:31 AM
And dont tell me the current laws are not stringent in conatining the public... that may be the case in our country where the same law can be applied in a different manner to the common man and to the Influentia or political person.....

I am goddamn sure Laws of the world in General (right from the VISA laws to travel laws to general laws for the well being of the society) are being implemented in full force and strict treatment.... Atleast thats wat I can see from the way people Live here where I am not... and In other countries too....

king_143
11-26-2003, 02:43 AM
EVERY SINGLE (so-called) TERRORIST (because they call themself freedom fighters, fighting for their right to live in a place of their own) WHO DIES ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH

EVERY SINGLE CHECHEN REBEL WHO TOOK HOSTAGES IN A MOSCOW THEATRE ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH !!

EVERY SINGLE HIJACKER WHO CRASHED INTO THE WTC ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH

EVERY SINGLE KASHMIRI INSURGENT WHO STORMED THE PARLIAMENT ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH!!!



EACH OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON, THEY DO NOT FEAR THEIR DEATH BUT THEY FEAR THEIR FAMILIES DEATH

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT TERRORISTS IT IS ALTOGETHER IN A DIFFERENT DIMENSION.

Would killing their families would stop terrorism?. Thats what Isreal has been doing for years. And Russia did it last year. Did they succed?

sweetie
11-26-2003, 02:47 AM
Thats what I am also trying to say.... Either killing the criminal himself / their families is NOT GOING to do any good !!!

Did U read all my postings ??? Guess u wud understand better abt what I am trying to say if U did just that.....

When people like these prepared to die no matter how, then what is the point of awarding a death penalty and bragging about it ????

Rather I wud prefer keeping them alive, say under a life imprisonment, away from the eyes of their family, and make them feel what loss and loneliness is all about.... Guess that wud have a greater impact on the individual / as well as others who are related to this individual, since once he realizes the mistakes he will be in a position to advice others against do similar things in the future....

sweetie
11-26-2003, 02:49 AM
And just because U pointed it out, LEMME tell u something... Just because the Russians / Israeli' have gotten carried away and started attacking the terrorists families, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING BUT ADDING MORE FUEL TO THE ALREADY RAGING INFERNO !!!!!!!!!! U r going to see more blood when U treat people this way... and this wud be the same case for a Death penalty too........ No Good... But More harm !!! Thats wat will happen....

king_143
11-26-2003, 03:04 AM
Sweetie I am on your side of argument ...

sweetie
11-26-2003, 03:17 AM
Gud for u King_143 .... :P

sofiadorathy
11-26-2003, 04:03 AM
Good comment madhu
Thats what i said in my earlier whats 100 % guilty and 80% guilty..Sofia pls explain


100% guilty is nothing but when a person doing harm to the society forever.....hope u understand....

Be Happy......

sofiadorathy
11-26-2003, 04:06 AM
Sweetie I am on your side of argument ...


Sorry King As per the rules "U cant jump from one team to another team"

Thank u

Be Happy.....

king_143
11-26-2003, 05:32 AM
I dont agree with DEATH penality as a punishment. But for those who are eligible by their deeds should be isolated till death.


Sofi,
I did not change my party, The above statement is my first statement

king_143
11-26-2003, 05:49 AM
Friends,
Does any one know what happened to the (so called )Doctor who was involved in (minor age) sex film scandal. I think that ______ should get some kind of punishment seeing which no other ______ should dare to attempt such things.
I thing some kind of hilter level torture (in public) should keep atleast few such __________ from doing these things.

I think death sentence would be too small for him

Comenaughty
11-26-2003, 06:58 AM
I think that ______ should get some kind of punishment seeing which no other ______ should dare to attempt such things.


king,
wat abt chopping off the part, which played major role in the crime, like the way its done in saudi :think: .... :sm12: ....so that the ppl get a shiver to even think of the nature of punishment if caught?

:sm12::sm12::sm12::sm12:

naughty

sweetie
11-26-2003, 07:18 AM
Wat comenaughty said makes some sense in some way I guess... Coz that way, U instill real fear and reasoning in the mind of the people, without taking the life of an individual... But still when someone categorizes the same punishments as torture and that shud not be done, it makes u think twice ... Is'nt it ?????

Anyway,... waiting for more from others !!!

king_143
11-26-2003, 07:30 AM
Heres the link to the picture of the person involved . This ______________ is in USA. I searched all the websites but the news people have changed the crime details form Minor to Patients. If it would be a minor involved case then it would be more serious in USA than the later. He would get atleast 200 - 250 years of imprisonment , but not a life termer.


http://raseenalah.tripod.com/karaikal/news/page20.html

sweetie
11-26-2003, 07:48 AM
KING_143

Could you please *EXPLAIN* to me the difference (if any) between a Life Sentence and a 200 to 250 years of Imprisonment ??????

Dont U think both of 'em wud've the same impact ???? Provided in either case, the person does'nt get bail n comes out before he is actually feeling rehabilitated !!!!

king_143
11-26-2003, 08:00 AM
In US generally they add all the terms of the crimes done and give a solid number of years.
But in India , life sentences are given and generally you cant add the terms like for 1 rape = 7 years , then 3 rapes = 21 years, true in USA but not in india. And a life sentence is for 13 years.

truepenny
11-26-2003, 08:02 AM
Okay ppl... according to US law system, they spend several thousand dollars for each criminal per month. If as per sweetie, if some hard core criminal is to be kept in solitary prison, imagine how much they have to spend on him - just with a baseless hope of this guy realising his sins!!!!!!!!!

Secondly, how is he going to be a lesson?! Giving a death penalty in a way secures the society from this criminal. Most of the criminals out here are X-convicts. Many come out in bail and do the same crime. why to leave such ppl into the society?

truepenny
11-26-2003, 08:08 AM
Adding one more point:

Not sure if u guys know this: here in US , if a person is sentenced to say 8 yrs, that doesn't mean he is goin to serve whole 8 yrs.

Firstly: the term starts from NOT when he is sentenced but starts when he is on trial.

Next: For every day he spends in correctional facility on any training program/ works in the facility, one day (or some hrs - not sure) is reduced from his term period. One reason for this is to reduce the dollars (our social security money) spent on him.

Sweetie: if to be practical, US has no way. Death penalty is a must to pull these weeds.

madhu_aish1
11-26-2003, 08:21 AM
One reason for this is to reduce the dollars (our social security money) spent on him.

Sweetie: if to be practical, US has no way. Death penalty is a must to pull these weeds.

dude... what kind of argument is this.. I dont see any valid point here.. To decrease spending ..do we have to start increasing death penalties.. :think: :think: :think:

This implies me that you might support ..If a person overspeeds or doesn't stop in Stop sign give him death sentence, So that fear would be instilled in the minds of public.. DO you think value of Life is more than violating rules.. :( :(

Madhu

sweetie
11-26-2003, 09:01 AM
Truepenny .... If U think about the cost involved in keeping a person (a criminal) in solitary confinement and so the best way to avoid this is to KILL HIM (read as death sentence), then there is hardly one can say with regard to arguement !!!

I dunno wat U r trying to get at or trying to say !!!

As u say, the number of terms is reduced based on the time spent in a CORRECTIONAL / REHABILITATION FACILITY .... What does that mean dude ??? Does'nt that mean that the person has undergone a transformation in his life and when he comes out he will surely reach to as many people as he can and spread the message that he has learnt !!!!

IF THERE IS NO WAY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO TURN AROUND THEIR LIFE BY LIFE IMPRISONMENTS / CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES / REHABILITATION CENTERS, THEN WHY DO MOST OF THE PRISONS / JAILS / DETENTION CENTERS HAVE ALL THESE FACILITIES ANNEXED TO THEM ????

Is'nt it because every human being, watever hardcore criminal he may be, has got the inner thoughts which at some point in his / her life, will make him think about the right things to do and the wrong things to avoid doing... This is wat I meant when I said a coupla posts earlier that everyone shud be given time to come out of their shell and start living a life with remorse... If no one shows remorse even after a 1000 Years in prison (assuming man can live so long), EVEN THEN I wud not put that man to death... I wud give him more time and keep him in confinement .......

If U worry about the money being spent on Criminals by keeping them in detention, then I think U have not realised that THEY ARE THE PEOPLE WHO NEED THE UTMOST ATTENTION, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO NEED THEIR LIFE TO BE TURNED AROUND AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO NEED HELP !!!

Every one has the potential to commit criminal activities... U r talking so much now... U Will never know when ur mind / thought decides to give way in a fit of rage and U may do the same crime...... What wud u expect the law to do then ??? PUT YOU DEATH RIGHT ???

huhhhhh.... Above all else, I wish people start respecting other People' lives and value them..... Dusnt mean u kill someone coz he is a criminal.. in Ur eyes he is a criminal... in my eyes he is someone who lost his mind due to various factors such as Society / Situations / Professional Life / Personal Life etc etc..... NO ONE IS BORN A CRIMINAL !!!! In that case there is nothing wrong in spending on such people and HELP THEM GET THEIR TRUE LIFE BACK !!!!!!!!!

katteri
11-26-2003, 09:38 AM
[quote="katteri"][quote="sweetie"][quote=katteri]
'' A A convicted individual shud serve as an example to others.... That EVERY SINGLE (so-called) TERRORIST (because they call themself freedom fighters, fighting for their right to live in a place of their own) WHO DIES ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH

EVERY SINGLE CHECHEN REBEL WHO TOOK HOSTAGES IN A MOSCOW THEATRE ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH !!

EVERY SINGLE HIJACKER WHO CRASHED INTO THE WTC ARE PEOPLE WHO DONT HAVE FEAR OF DEATH
!!!!!

Do u know the exact reason behind their operation they r forced to do this...No one is ready to accept death.As u said abt terrorist once they r captured they ll prefer to die bcos they dont want to undergo sever torture...
AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH...Bcos thalaiavliyum muthukuvaliyum avan vanaukku vanthal than theriyum....
Cu 2 morrow

sweetie
11-26-2003, 10:32 AM
Katteri... Un perukku suit aagara maathiri thaan pesara nee ... :P

I think one of the posters already posted abt *AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH* ... Then obviously the whole world wud be blind !!!

** Bcos thalaiavliyum muthukuvaliyum avan vanaukku vanthal than theriyum**

Atha thaan naanum solren.... Criminals entha vagaiyila intha maathiri kaariyam panna ennam vanthathu nu namakku enna theriyum ??? Ithai ellam yosikkaama summa summa death sentence kuduthuttu iruntha urupada mudiyaathu Katteri.....

katteri
11-26-2003, 11:55 AM
Katteri... Un perukku suit aagara maathiri thaan pesara nee ... :P
.....
Thanks mate neeyum vun perukku thakuntha mathirir rombha sweet a than pesura :ahha: :ahha: ...innipa pesuna mayankiduvankala :cool: .....illai hard a pesuna payanthuvankala :evil: .... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
See Sweetie every suspect (whatever countyr they r in )are undergone several levels of investigation and then only they r labelled as criminals.Based upon the level & intensity of crime they have done punishment will be given.
Namma topic ill irunthu divert akarai mathiri theiryuthu,..understand the complete meaning.....An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth..
We wud have seen so many riots in our country During the riots if police /military force doesnt come into act people will steal everything from the shop and do all sorts of **********.You wud have seen what happened in Iraq...there were no medicines left...
I am not saying all the criminals shd be hanged...
Based upon the level of crime and the intention behind it shd be investigatedthorughly and then judgement shd be given..
puriyalai na 100 roopa thirudankuu death sentence kodukalamma....koodathu.. athe criminals convicted of rape, child kidnapping ku.. death sentence than best...

katteri
11-26-2003, 12:05 PM
Atha thaan naanum solren.... Criminals entha vagaiyila intha maathiri kaariyam panna ennam vanthathu nu namakku enna theriyum ??? Ithai ellam yosikkaama summa summa death sentence kuduthuttu iruntha urupada mudiyaathu Katteri.....

''In late 10 the century where kings ruled our land... they used to kill criminals and hang only their heads in pole''
I cudnt remember which book but its one of the famous book, when queen requested the king to drop such activities in future, king told her if i leave this criminals will increase and my welfare of people is lost .Kudi makkali kappathu arasanin kadamai...athu pole its the duty of govt to protect its people from criminals..As u know our constituion has lot of loop holes...still if he cant escape from such holes think how big the crime wud be ...
avan valarathai vida savathe mell....

sweetie
11-26-2003, 12:14 PM
Avan varathai vida saavarathe mel nu nee solla koodaathu KAATERI.... Even u r a mere mortal and so am I and so is everyone .......

Just becoz u r the King or the Queen or someone who believes in their words, shud u go arnd hanging people whom U deem fit to die rather than to live !!

But nee solrathu puriyuthu... Appadi rapists / murderers / etc etc for whom u say that death sentence is the best, wat is the use ??? Just by putting them to death all that U r managing to achieve is SATISFYING UR OWN HUNGER FOR REVENGE !!! Thats all....... Vera onnum kidaikkaathu.... Leave alone Putting another family in distress with the loss of a Life...

Wat difference will it make if U keep the same individual Under life imprisonment without any parole ???? It wud still have the same effect right.... he wud live but he wud go thru more pain tha death because he is living within the confines of the Prison !!! Without any luxury in life....

Taking a life does NOT IN ANY WAY justify YOUR ACTIONS / OR THE INDIVIDUAL CRIMINAL's actions !!!

By the way ... Naan sweet aa irukken / pesaren nu sonnathukku thanks... but naan sweet aa pesarathu unna mayakkavum illa.... Illa ennaiye perumaiya portray pannavum illa.. So alaiyaatha enna ..... ;) ;)

katteri
11-26-2003, 01:36 PM
Wat difference will it make if U keep the same individual Under life imprisonment without any parole ???? It wud still have the same effect right.... he wud live but he wud go thru more pain tha death because he is living within the confines of the Prison !!! Without any luxury in life....

Taking a life does NOT IN ANY WAY justify YOUR ACTIONS / OR THE INDIVIDUAL CRIMINAL's actions !!!

By the way ... Naan sweet aa irukken / pesaren nu sonnathukku thanks... but naan sweet aa pesarathu unna mayakkavum illa.... Illa ennaiye perumaiya portray pannavum illa.. So alaiyaatha enna ..... ;) ;)
Kaaka kaaka style la soona y to waste the govt expenses if already govt doesnt have enough resources to support common people...Death sentence is a lesson to the future community too....For eg vunka vettila sollirupankaa.. exam ku pokum pothu ozhungha namma vunduu nama velai vundu nu poi exam ezhithittu vaa nu..copy ethuvum adikathe...Yarukkavath kammiya mark vankanum aasai irukumaaa..(suppose if u dont knwo any of the qns).If u do not want to take risk(RISK -PAYAM COLLEGE IL IRUNTHU DEBAR PANNIU VANKOLUNU.. u have seen or heard some one abt consequences of copying) wht u will do , ull try to answer as many qns u know and come out of exam hall i f u want to take a risk u ll attempt to copy... if u r lucky enuf ur not caught of copying ...if ur unlucky ur caught thats how some cases againsts criminal succed ...so most of the criminals escape from loop holes .. antha loop holes ellam thappi ka mudiyathvan evalavu periya kadinch edutha criminal a irruppan.....

katteri
11-26-2003, 01:45 PM
By the way ... Naan sweet aa irukken / pesaren nu sonnathukku thanks... but naan sweet aa pesarathu unna mayakkavum illa.... Illa ennaiye perumaiya portray pannavum illa.. So alaiyaatha enna ..... ;) ;)

Sweetie starting le irunthe vunka kanakku thappa irukku :oops: ...
Thappana vatham thokuura katchil iruukenkaaa :oops: :oops: ...appuram ennai alaiyarenu solrenkaa :think: :oops: :oops: ....(topic a vittu veliye pokathenkaaa
Name sweet a h vechikittu ..karam a m pesathenkaaa) :fight: :fight:
Vunka life le ya eduthu kitta nenka niraiya thapu panni irrupneka (illai nu sweet pesi thapika parkathenka- nan niriay panni irukken).Thappukm right kum ore oru differenc than .. Antha line location .athe mathir thappana decison kum right an decison kum oru difference ORU line distance...antha line POSITION il irunthu yosikaa solluthu 'LAWS;;
THIRUMBHAVUM SOLREN THOKIRAA KATHCIYLL IRUKENKAAAA...... :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :nono:

katteri
11-26-2003, 01:48 PM
INNUM ONNU IPPO VARAIKKUM ...POLL LE PARUNKAA
Poll :: Is Death Penality Good For Society??
YES -8
NO- 5

sofiadorathy
11-26-2003, 03:42 PM
INNUM ONNU IPPO VARAIKKUM ...POLL LE PARUNKAA
Poll :: Is Death Penality Good For Society??
YES -8
NO- 5


Good Comments from Katteri and Sweetie.....But u know that results of Poll will not help to make a team as a Winner....Keep it in Mind.....

And Sweetie I Agree with what Katteri said.....



Sweetie starting le irunthe vunka kanakku thappa irukku ...
Thappana vatham thokuura katchil iruukenkaaa ...appuram ennai alaiyarenu solrenkaa ....(topic a vittu veliye pokathenkaaa


Please talk related to the topic....

And Comenaughty What Happened to u and Shy??? Why u ppls not Participating?

Thank u

Be Happy......

lodestar
11-26-2003, 04:59 PM
Just by putting them to death all that U r managing to achieve is SATISFYING UR OWN HUNGER FOR REVENGE !!!


i dont understand why it is being regarded as an act of satisfying revenge?? :think: a person is executed bcos he deserves to be...there is no revenge attitude in that..

the indian army shoots down the infiltrants at the border...they are taking away the life of a human being..Are they doing it for satisfying the hunger for revenge??? if you say yes to this better move into pakistan buddy :wink: ...the army is just protecting the other innocents inside our country...same is the case in death sentence no revenge attitude it is just an act of punishing the criminal..so dont regard it as an act of revenge ok??

fear of death will hold a person back from doing a crime and if he/she doesn`t have that fear no worries in hanging him/her to death..

arumugam57
11-26-2003, 05:03 PM
In which side sweetie is arguing will win. WHichever the side may be.. I am 100% sure.
I am not telling this but my past experience is telling this..

I think now itself we can finish this topic. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

sofiadorathy
11-26-2003, 05:13 PM
In which side sweetie is arguing will win. WHichever the side may be.. I am 100% sure.
I am not telling this but my past experience is telling this..

I think now itself we can finish this topic


Dont worry about that Father....Cheer up....Why cant u participate in this Patti Mandram against Sweetie and show ur talents to everyone in Geeetham....Comeon Father....waiting for ur speech.....

Dont think that Sweetie's team will win up....Have u seen many messages from his opponents are really Fantasic....Sweetie's Arguements are very very good though...He is Making this topic much more interesting like others too.....

But Sofia will allot results only for messages that is clear and pucca.....
Thats the hard thing now in this Patti Mandram...All are playing a very good role for their team...I dunno what to do for the results.....

Again I should try the same type of conclusion that
I have said last time.....mmmmm God Knows Everything....

Be Happy...

sofiadorathy
11-26-2003, 05:18 PM
Hello Geetham Members As I have Said already that I will announce the Date of result....here's the date....This Patti Mandram will lead upto the second week of next month....I mean on 15/12/2003 night 12.00 GMT.....

No Changes in this time.....

As some of the ppls requested for long time for a Patti Mandram, I have chooosed this date.....Hope this date will be fine for Everyone Participating in this Patti Mandram....

Thank you for reading my post Patiently

Be Happy....

cselva
11-26-2003, 06:49 PM
YES BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE NO END FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOTHING FOR BEING BORN IN THIS WORLD.THERE IS A PROVERB'NORUNGAA THINDRAAL NURUVAYASHU'WHICH MEANS OUR GRAND PARENTS ALSO DON'T WANT TO LIVE AFTER HIS/HER 1OO YRS WHICH IS AN EXTRA BURDEN TO THIS WORLD

sofiadorathy
11-26-2003, 07:07 PM
YES BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE NO END FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DID NOTHING FOR BEING BORN IN THIS WORLD.THERE IS A PROVERB'NORUNGAA THINDRAAL NURUVAYASHU'WHICH MEANS OUR GRAND PARENTS ALSO DON'T WANT TO LIVE AFTER HIS/HER 1OO YRS WHICH IS AN EXTRA BURDEN TO THIS WORLD



Mr.Cselva what is the point in ur arguement?? Can I just know what ru trying to say??? Did u understand the topic.... The topic is "IS DEATH PENALITY GOOD FOR SOCIETY??" This is the topic and ur reply has nothing related with that....

Hope ur next post will be gooood...

Anyway thanks for Participating in this.....

Be Happy....

Comenaughty
11-26-2003, 09:56 PM
hi all,
as many ppl have written earlier, death sentence can instil some amout of fear in the society....but at the same time, how does the government have the right to take off someone's life?

they can police the society..... but they dont have any rights to take of a life..... one can argue the ancient policy "tit for tat"....a cold blooded murderer has to be removed from the society, and the only efective way of doing it is executng him...... but think.... did a murderer actually murder someone because he found the population one too many? or did he murder someone coz he wanted to c blood or.....? the reason is the society..... the current society is driving many youths in to nefarious activities..... if u take the background of many criminals, they were driven to crime due to poverty, joblessness, absolute penury and so on..... who is responsible for that? the society has driven one portion of the youths to the corner..... we r now in diff. places, enjoying freedom and life..... but put urself in a situation, where u had no money, no food, no clothes, nothing..... and the govt. is totally unwilling/not taking measures to help them..... wat will these youths resort to..... they will do anything for money..... and this society, which did actually made these youths to be criminals has NO rights wat so ever to take off a life, if such an youth is convicted.....

finallky coming to the judicial system in india..... i guess everyone wud have come across the saying "oru kutravaali thappikalam ana oru nirabar...." .... in the current judicial system, this has been rewritten as "oru ezhai thapikaalam aana oru panakaran nechiyama thandikka pada koodathu"....this is the present society.... JJ escaped scot free after eating thousands of crores..... u know ppl like them have resulted in the poor becoming poor which has driven them in to committing crimes...... and how can someone give them death penalty when they r caught.....its after all our society which drove them to commit a murder or wtever.....

so, my opinion is, watever be it, death penalty is definitely not an option to punish the guilty.... if u really wanna instill fear, resort to other means like the one i suggested earlier in some particular cases..... :wink:

naughty

truepenny
11-26-2003, 11:41 PM
Look into Death penalty as a way of punishing the hard core criminals. That is what they deserve. Why do you want to see that as a revenge?
Again if a serial killer kills 10 woman in a row and waits to prey upon the rest...if he is caught, execute him. Thats what he deserves.

Think about the families he has destroyed. If the victim were (GOD forbid) ur sister/mom/wife (again, please forgive me for this line...GoOD forbid and May GOD bless your family) , be honest and say will you want to give him a chance?

Recently, for the snipper Muhammed , jury gave death sentence and u know what pushed them so far? 'He showed NO remorse from the beginning thruout the trial' . He will never realise how many years u put him in prison.

sweetie
11-27-2003, 01:34 AM
Kaatteri .... Summa dont keep saying time and again that Death penalty will teach a lesson to the future community..... THIS IS THE SAME GODDAMN COMMUNITY WHERE WE ARE LEAVING THAT HAS SEEN THE LIKES OF KENNEDY's / GANDHIS's BEING ASSASINATED AND THEIR ASSASINS BEING PUT TO DEATH (Either by Judicial system / or by the angry public - This is was in Kennedy's case, when Oswald was shot dead by a civilian) .... WHAT HAPPENED AFTER ALL THIS ????

Even now People are being assasinated / Bombs are being hurled at every goddamn person...

WHAT KIND OF LESSON DID THOSE INITIAL / PAST DEATH PENALTIES TEACH THE FUTURE (Which means us) COMMUNITY ???

Dun tell me that Death Penalty is the only solution to instill FEAR in the mind of the PEOPLE ... I dun buy it, neither will anyone in the current world will....... Give me some other reason for your arguement and I will think about it.... Else Watever u all (Those who support death Penalty) are saying is nothing but one single point, which is *Death penalty will instill fear in the mind of the people and in the society* .... WHICH IS NOT THE CASE AND WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WILL **NEVER** HAPPEN !!!

vasan
11-27-2003, 02:20 AM
I voted no to death penalty.

The advocates of death penalty, including those writing in this 'patti mandram' have suggested the following as their primary reasons for supporting it.

1) Its a punishment deserved by the hard-core criminals
2) This would be the true justice for really horrendous crimes
3) This would instill fear in the heart of 'would-be' criminals
4) Would sooth the victims hearts and sense of punishment
5) No need to waste money by keeping these people in jail

My comments.

Though each country has laws describing exactly what crimes are punishable by death, as often the case, such laws are driven by what is currently a heinous crime. Long ago, if a woman is caught (for men its not usually the case) in adultery, she will be stoned to death. Now, (except in some countries) such a law would be a joke - if not a humanitarian crime. While the rules on death penalty are flexible, and evolving the death of a person itself remains immutable. How tragic !! Just because we changed our rules (with good reason, after all the rules were stupid!), now can we bring them back to life? Whats even worse is the case, where DNA evidence has shown that many in death row in US have actually not committed the crime - one recent case of Minnesota (or was it Illinois) Governor Pardoning every one and commuting it to life sentence until proven 'not-guilty'. Except in rare cases complete proof is impossible. And Death is immutable.

No arguments about it being effective. If a life sentence in some of the worse prisons in the world does not instill fear, I don't see how its going to instill fear in any ones minds. Punishments are not reformations - either they provide no chances for the criminals or remove the potential to commit such crimes. Also, while it is sure that it costs the exchequer a pretty penny to run these prisons, unfortunately we don't have alternatives. I mean, aren't we spending money preserving other criminals? To save money, just, what extent can we go? After hard core criminals, can we go after smaller thiefs? Then innocent people, but burdens to the society?? That is pretty much the logical extent of this comment... If we do allow such practices, are we (as a society) any better than the criminals themselves?

Eye for an eye, punishment is justice, Hamurabi/Moses Law, Victims feel justice is served.... All this, though sound like the best excuses, they are still not good enough. If we allow death penalty for worse crimes, can we dismember people for lesser crimes? Isn't that exactly what Hamurabi/Moses law promotes? (Incidentally, that should not be taught as Christian doctrine... They have to balance that statement with Christ' teachings to 'turn the other cheek'. I will not go into details on the balance to avoid religious overtones). Why is that we don't hear about 'making people blind, or chopping some ones hands or legs' as a punishment (with the exception of some countries..). Victims do feel sorrow - but law is not meant to be a force for revenge. Since death is the ultimate punishement, are we also willing to mete out other 'revenge' solutions (such as rape, looting, burning, dismembering, stoning and various other cruel issues) for satisfying the victims need to see justice served?

As I have tried to explain, none of the reasons for justying death penalty really hold water. While I understand in a theoretical sense the need to get even or see justice done, I am still hesistant to condemn a person to electric chair.

We are just unfortunate to have such hard criminals on this earth. While we can loathe them as much as we can, we still can't condemn them to death. If only because we can't be like them. For I think, by punishing a person to death, the gap between justice and crime is narrowed down too close to be effective, useful or even comfortable.

When we can't give life to a person, why should we have legal excuse to remove it from him or her?

Vasan

sweetie
11-27-2003, 02:38 AM
Money Money Money...... U people talk so much about the money being "wasted" (I would call it "Spent") on Criminals and Prisons !! Do U people realise / feel / understand how much money U *actually* waste in life ???? And when some money goes onto prisons / keeping criminals away from the society, then how can U call that a waste ???

Criminals are not born... They are made !! As I had mentioned earlier and as one of the other visitors posted here, Criminals are made by the society.. They are pushed to the extreme and forced to such activities by the same goddamn society we live in and by the same goddamn society that is Hell bent upon Killing those criminals in the name of "Death Penalty" .......

The amount of money thats languishing in the accounts of all the goddamn morons (read as politicians) and others who evade tax, is nowhere near the amount of money being spent on Criminals and in keeping them locked up, away from the society......

Dont bring in the issue of money in here... it does not stand in good taste....

Kaakka kaakka movie la yaaro ennavo sonnaanga, so namma ellaarum athan padiye nadanthu kollalaam nu sonneengana, that clearly shows the capacity of public in how much they can divorce between REALITY / MOVIE LIFE....... DUn U people still feel / realise that Movies are totally not possible in real life ???? I just cant believe U take *EXAMPLES* from movies and live life according to that...... huhhhh... Gimme a break... dun tell me u r all citizens of the 21st century......

And further for an arguement like *Is death penalty good ?*, where the debate is about the life / death of an individual, not even in my wildest dreams did I think that u people wud come up with examples from Movies...

Real life wud inspire Movies... It shud not be vice versa... Grow up people... get a life !!!

vasan
11-27-2003, 02:45 AM
I like the spirit of your arguments, Sweetie, just as much as the insight you bring to the discussion :) :)

Saving money can never be an excuse for death penalty. If you really argue for it, then remember, by logic, wasting money should be punishable by death. Such is never the case - and arguing in the opposite is simply meaningless...

Shy
11-27-2003, 04:08 AM
Hi guys,

Late entry...

My vote is YES, WHEN PROVED 100% OF GUILT.

(1) I dont see why we have to discuss humanity to some persons, who kills other human beings. No humanity should be shown to those type of people. show other cheek, etc ellam will not work here. Namba accused'kku death penalty kuduka koodathu... thats not humane solroomae.. whats the answer for the family of the victim.. onnumae theriyaama.. suddenly they had lost their loved ones.. Example the recent sniper attacks.. Can anyone answer that no death penalty for that guy who said hes god and killed people doing their normal day to day work?? Why should humanity be showed on such a person, who doesnt care for others lives?? Whats the use in he be kept in life in prison without parole etc. What justifiation is that been given to the family of the loved ones? Appadi life is person irunthu what will be learn.. achachoo namba kill pannitoomae..we shouldnt have'na.. No reality'la daily nalla cigar kedaikum.. 3 times meals.. play eruku.. TV pakalaam.. appuram enna ellamoo irukum, as years pass by.. If this is the justice that the government give for the family of the loved ones.. I strongly object. NO, dealth penalty is the best medicine.. angae poi lethal injection thara poogum poothu he will lay there, with numerous people watching him. Appo he will know whats the value of life that he took for those innocent people. he might have fear in his heart, that wont someone save him??? ethae fear thaan for those victims, who suffered, like from serial killers, rapers erukum... So death penalty can be given to accused those are proved 100% guilty.

(2) I said only when proved guilty. just as that we cant take one persons life. I agreee to that.. 12 jurys erunthu, discuss panni, 2 -4 weeks trial poi, media aalasi paathu.. we can really find out if the guy is guilty or not. Eppo than DNA test, athu etunu neraiyaa iruku.. we can easily check if the accused is innocent or been caught by circumstantial evidence. So I think it should be proved that the person is guilty for issuing death penalty.

(3) I am concluding my first post with this. humanity, no rights to take ones life, ellam enga saelupadi aagaathu.. The accused should feel what the mistake he did. That wont be done by putting him/her in a pirosn for life and leaving them to think abt their mistakes. Think in reality, will a person suffer thinking abt his mistakes in his entire life? Chumma accused kill pannina, victim will return back to life'a eppadi questions ellam sutha paethaal. Victims coming back or not is the answer here. A person who doesnt know the value of a life, had no reason to be forgiven and given a chance to live. DID THE ACCUSED GAVE A CHANCE FOR THE VICTIM?
More to come.

Shy

sofiadorathy
11-27-2003, 04:19 AM
Welcome comenaughty for getting back into the Action...mmm its really goood to seee many ppls are talking to the answer NO....good keep it up....Keep up the word in real life also by the way the ppls who are talking about No can take some rest right now and can continue after the opponent cmments.....Thank u

Be Happy...

sweetie
11-27-2003, 05:57 AM
Hi guys,

Whats the use in he be kept in life in prison without parole etc. What justifiation is that been given to the family of the loved ones?

(3) I am concluding my first post with this. humanity, no rights to take ones life, ellam enga saelupadi aagaathu.. The accused should feel what the mistake he did. That wont be done by putting him/her in a pirosn for life and leaving them to think abt their mistakes. Think in reality, will a person suffer thinking abt his mistakes in his entire life? Chumma accused kill pannina, victim will return back to life'a eppadi questions ellam sutha paethaal. Victims coming back or not is the answer here. A person who doesnt know the value of a life, had no reason to be forgiven and given a chance to live. DID THE ACCUSED GAVE A CHANCE FOR THE VICTIM?

Shy

What justification will the family of the people who lost their lives in the hands of a Criminal GET by putting that Criminal to death ????

If U say that an accused will not learn / feel / realise his mistakes, THEN HOW DO U EXPECT HIM TO DO THAT IF U R GOING TO KILL HIM IN THE NAME OF DEATH PENALTY ???? How will u know whether he realized his mistakes or not or whether he repents for his actions or not if You are not going to give him time and instead kill him the moment ur eyes fall on him ???

Victims life not going to get back to normal nu sollum pothu, WHAT IS THE USE OF EITHER KILLING A CRIMINAL / PUTTING HIM IN JAIL FOR LIFE ???? Pesaama avan veliye vittudalaame.......... Summa intha **ellam sutha paethaal** **ellam enga saelupadi aagaathu** ellam easy aa sollidalaam ...... Whether it be a criminal / innocent person, life / death nu varum pothu, ellame sellupadi aagum.... ella paethaal um reasonable aa thaan irukkum... afterall there is a very thin line between life and death... atha pathina related arguements kkum athe thin line thaan irukku.... so think pannunga... oru murder kaaga, justice enra name la innoru murder panrathu, enna porutha varaikkum uncivilized society kku thaan suit aagum....

vasan
11-27-2003, 06:22 AM
Hi guys,

Late entry...

My vote is YES, WHEN PROVED 100% OF GUILT.

(1) I dont see why we have to discuss humanity to some persons, who kills other human beings No humanity should be shown to those type of people. . show other cheek, etc ellam will not work here. Namba accused'kku death penalty kuduka koodathu... thats not humane solroomae.. whats the answer for the family of the victim.. onnumae theriyaama.. suddenly they had lost their loved ones.. Example the recent sniper attacks.. Can anyone answer that no death penalty for that guy who said hes god and killed people doing their normal day to day work?? Why should humanity be showed on such a person, who doesnt care for others lives?? Whats the use in he be kept in life in prison without parole etc. What justifiation is that been given to the family of the loved ones? Appadi life is person irunthu what will be learn.. achachoo namba kill pannitoomae..we shouldnt have'na.. No reality'la daily nalla cigar kedaikum.. 3 times meals.. play eruku.. TV pakalaam.. appuram enna ellamoo irukum, as years pass by.. If this is the justice that the government give for the family of the loved ones.. I strongly object. NO, dealth penalty is the best medicine.. angae poi lethal injection thara poogum poothu he will lay there, with numerous people watching him. Appo he will know whats the value of life that he took for those innocent people. he might have fear in his heart, that wont someone save him??? ethae fear thaan for those victims, who suffered, like from serial killers, rapers erukum... So death penalty can be given to accused those are proved 100% guilty.

(2) I said only when proved guilty. just as that we cant take one persons life. I agreee to that.. 12 jurys erunthu, discuss panni, 2 -4 weeks trial poi, media aalasi paathu.. we can really find out if the guy is guilty or not. Eppo than DNA test, athu etunu neraiyaa iruku.. we can easily check if the accused is innocent or been caught by circumstantial evidence. So I think it should be proved that the person is guilty for issuing death penalty.

(3) I am concluding my first post with this. humanity, no rights to take ones life, ellam enga saelupadi aagaathu.. The accused should feel what the mistake he did. That wont be done by putting him/her in a pirosn for life and leaving them to think abt their mistakes. Think in reality, will a person suffer thinking abt his mistakes in his entire life? Chumma accused kill pannina, victim will return back to life'a eppadi questions ellam sutha paethaal. Victims coming back or not is the answer here. A person who doesnt know the value of a life, had no reason to be forgiven and given a chance to live. DID THE ACCUSED GAVE A CHANCE FOR THE VICTIM?More to come.

Shy

Shy,

I agree with your indignation that people should support such vilest criminals - but I don't quite agree with you in that they don't deserve a bit of 'humane treament' or humanity as you have written.

I highlighted some parts just for ease of replying. My first question is if we kill a killer, as a society how are we more humane? Aren't we killing people - I agree that they are bad cruel, people. But still its life! As a society if we are opposed to killing human beings, we must also resist killing human beings - however base they may be - in the name of justice or any other lofty ideals. By killing, I am saying, we loose humanity.

Please, Shy... The prisons are not anywhere like what you have described. And prisons and separation is the punishment society imposes on criminals - not starvations, isolation, ill-health, and physical discomfort. (Truth is though that is the basis of modern prison, most prisons are still so base that, a change in living conditions brought by some people as brave as Kiran Bedi are considered as revolutionary!). And no one is allowed to watch the execution - not in any civilized states (i mean, forget about those places where people will stone a person to death). The US law prohibits exhibition of death as well as pain in death. Death penalty must be as painless as possible - and also instantaneous. No one is going to see it and no one is going to learn from it. Indeed, there is no reasonable statistics to show that in the states where death penalty is allowed the 'vile' crimes are lower than in the states where it is prohibited.

Yes, to punish a person, you need to prove him that he is really guilty. But the trouble is most often that might not be the case. And anyways, my argument is that even if a person is proven guilty, the death penalty is not a solution - simply because it doesn't solve ANYTHING. (Forgive the capitals... )!

Your question of 'did the guilty give a chance for the victim?'... The obvious and implied answer is NO. My parallel question is, are we giving a chance to the guilty prisoner? How are we fundamentally different from the criminal? Only way is what the criminal did was 'punishable by law' and what we do to him is 'granted by the law'. (True, that is one heck of a difference... the difference between right and wrong.. !!) But you see, my trouble is that inspite of the great and formidable difference between right and wrong, the ultimate result ends in loss of life. Criminal (if his crime is murder) kills for his own whatever, and the society kills in the name of justice... Should we do that? Do we really have the right to take away the life of a person - however vile, despicable, cruel criminal he might be??

I would say no, because of the awesomeness of such decisions. Here we would be condemning a man - and that would be the end. Its not going to help the society (not induce the fear in the ungodly, nor make the society safer) but its the END. There is no going back, no second chances, no correcting the course of action.. no nothing. Absolute vaccum after that. And even if a person has done that to many exactly the same thing, yet as a society should we do it to him?

I think NO would be a better answer.

sweetie
11-27-2003, 06:31 AM
Vasan' post cant be more explanatory in what I was saying.... Guess people who say *yes* to death sentences being good, wud understand the basic ethics of human life atleast now..........

sofiadorathy
11-27-2003, 06:35 AM
Vasan' post cant be more explanatory in what I was saying.... Guess people who say *yes* to death sentences being good, wud understand the basic ethics of human life atleast now..........


Ennanga sweetie thideerunu philosophy vaarthai ellam naduvule vittu pinnureeeenga.....mmmm really gr8 carry on...

Be Happy....

sweetie
11-27-2003, 06:39 AM
Sofia ... Enakku oru santhegam......

Nee yen summa summa nadulla comments pass pannittu irukka .... even though they are appreciative in nature ???

Is it becos u r the naduvar or something like that ???

I jus tot I will remind u that even if u r the naduvar or the person who started this, it wud be nice if U cud post some valuable messages too....... I am not saying that ur appreciative and messages full of adulation are not valuable enuff... still... U know.... ;) ;) ;)

sofiadorathy
11-27-2003, 06:53 AM
Sofia ... Enakku oru santhegam......

Nee yen summa summa nadulla comments pass pannittu irukka .... even though they are appreciative in nature ???

Is it becos u r the naduvar or something like that ???

I jus tot I will remind u that even if u r the naduvar or the person who started this, it wud be nice if U cud post some valuable messages too....... I am not saying that ur appreciative and messages full of adulation are not valuable enuff... still... U know



Theva illama vaaye koduthu vaayi punna aayiduchu....?Naaan inga argue pannura alavukku periya buthisaali ille.... irunthaalum naan try pannuren...but ellorukkum oru warning naan start panna yaarum enna ethirthu pesa maateeenga....naaan thidirnu ellorayum kuzhappi vittuduven.... appuram intha topic active-aa irukkathu...athaan chumma chumma comments pass pannurathoda niruthikkiren.....

This is the reason...Sweetie.....

If u dont like that i will stop that tooo

Be Happy....

sweetie
11-27-2003, 06:56 AM
hahaha.... Kova padathe Sofia.. I did not say I dun like ur words.. ;) I was jus asking u to drop in with ur views... After all we are talking about the Life / Death for a Criminal... In this kinda debate, U dun need to be a Buthisaali to talk ..... ;) All U need is some reasoning ability and the capacity to defend ur words once u let them out.......

Anyway... :) keep posting.....

sofiadorathy
11-27-2003, 07:06 AM
hahaha.... Kova padathe Sofia.. I did not say I dun like ur words.. I was jus asking u to drop in with ur views... After all we are talking about the Life / Death for a Criminal... In this kinda debate, U dun need to be a Buthisaali to talk ..... All U need is some reasoning ability and the capacity to defend ur words once u let them out.......

Anyway... keep posting.....



Sorry Sweetie I cant post my views here because my class schedules are like that just I can hear be 1 hour in Geetham so only I have time just to read all the post and not to answer.....

I pass some 2-3 lines comment in between becauseto make the forum fun...thats all...A Patii Mandram must be jolly right and not serious even in serious topics....Thats the real fact...Hope u understood my Problem...

Be Happy...

katteri
11-27-2003, 08:28 AM
Kaatteri .... Summa dont keep saying time and again that Death penalty will teach a lesson to the future community..... THIS

Dun tell me that Death Penalty is the only solution to instill FEAR in the mind of the PEOPLE ... I dun buy it, neither will anyone in the current world will....... Give me some other reason for your arguement and I will think about it.... Else Watever u all (Those who support death Penalty) are saying is nothing but one single point, which is *Death penalty will instill fear in the mind of the people and in the society* .... WHICH IS NOT THE CASE AND WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WILL **NEVER** HAPPEN !!!
Sweetie u r looking from a criminals perspective i m looking from the entire society.For the well fare of society its no harm in hanging the dangerous Criminals.....

vasan
11-27-2003, 08:42 AM
Sweetie u r looking from a criminals perspective i m looking from the entire society.For the well fare of society its no harm in hanging the dangerous Criminals.....

uh? What is in that post that resembles a criminals perspective??

How does 'hanging the dangerous Criminals' becomes for the wellfare of the society? Why is better than locking them up? Don't tell money saving etc, because such comments have already been posted, and hopefully replied adequately.

Killing any one is not a solution for any problem. Human beings just don't have the right to take another persons life - its called the sanctity of life. Isn't that one of the crimes for which people can be given death penalty? If it is such a hideous crime, how is that it also becomes justice? (a complete philosophical conundrum there.. ). Treating human life with dignity and sanctity (yes, even the life of a terrible villain), is not the perspective of a criminal. But it is humane and proper view of life. And its value. And the complete, irrevocability of death.

We have no right to take a away a persons life - not for any reason. Out of anger and frustration, deep anguish and the wish to mete out 'justice' and punishment, we might be inclined to do so - but, we still don't have the right. We ought not to do that.

sweetie
11-27-2003, 08:53 AM
Sweetie u r looking from a criminals perspective i m looking from the entire society.For the well fare of society its no harm in hanging the dangerous Criminals.....

- I am not luking from a Criminals perspective... I dunno watever makes u think like that !! I am just seeing things from the perspective of Life, and from the eyes of a man that has been termed a "dangerous criminal" and who is being subjected to Death for his deeds !!

- Remember that the so-called dangerous criminal was part of this same society you are vouching for and this was the same society that has driven that individual to the extremes... Dun say that U look and talk for the welfare of the society... In that case I am sure there are a million ways to make the society better, so that there is NO CHANCE of the criminals being made in the first place... Go clean up your society first and then Start Killing the criminals !!!

Huhhhh.... Yeah, you're right !!! There is no harm in hanging or shooting to death the dangerous criminals...... and I guess U know wats happening in the world now with those who were meddling around with such ideas and what they are facing in return !!!!

katteri
11-27-2003, 10:38 AM
2 be simpel & shorter :
Death penalty has foll adv:
Keeps society in better way
A fear for every person to commit an offence
Time and resources of govt is not wasted
Not every terrorist arrested are given death sentence in our country to get a death sentence is difficult.The judge takes much time and discussionb4 giving judgement.If he s given death senetcne in india.sure he deserves in each and every part of the world.
dont blame the society.. if u look from criminals perspective ull see society as criminals....see the other side of coin...where lot of great persons lived and r living....The reason u gave that society is making criminals.....if such is the case c the ratio of convicted criminals or atleast suspects to the population of society...Athu eppadi ya society sila pera mattum than select panni criminal work panna sollutha..... :think:

sweetie
11-27-2003, 10:54 AM
Keeps society in better way

Not necessarily... There are worse things other than criminals to keep the society a real hell on Earth !! Dun blame them alone...


A fear for every person to commit an offence

Not agreeable.... For example, sometimes I really feel like going out and killing someone coz in my eyes he is a total moron and a hopeless creature... but all the death sentences given till now have not deterred me from avoiding such acts !!!


Time and resources of govt is not wasted

Crap... Dun talk repeatedly about the time and resources being wasted as part of the expenditure on Criminals and their rehabilitation !!! U waste much more hell of a money / resources on unnecessary things and in building up ur own personal assets !!! Get rid the society from the tax-evaders / politicians who amass wealth / and every goddamn moron the society encourages who is having more money than he has earned / deserves !!! naturally then this kinda complaint about money and resources being wasted wont be there....


Not every terrorist arrested are given death sentence in our country to get a death sentence is difficult.The judge takes much time and discussionb4 giving judgement.If he s given death senetcne in india.sure he deserves in each and every part of the world.

What quality does the so-called JUDGE possess other than having a degree next to his name ???? wat quality makes him worthy of killing someone in the name of justice ?? In my eyes I am the best Judge and there is no way someone else is gonna JUDGE HOW MY LIFE IS !! THis is the same that applies to everyone... Ofcourse since we have to have a rule of the land, we have to have these Judges and Jury's .... but no judge thinks on his own... He acts based on wat is said by the Prosecution / Defense... and as u know if U have a world class lawyer who can manipulate Law as ur defense attorney, then even the most "dangerous criminals" can get out of trouble.... dun tell me abt the Judges and their words... I wont buy it !! Sorry !! Cook up and gimme something better than that...


dont blame the society.. if u look from criminals perspective ull see society as criminals....see the other side of coin...where lot of great persons lived and r living....The reason u gave that society is making criminals.....if such is the case c the ratio of convicted criminals or atleast suspects to the population of society...Athu eppadi ya society sila pera mattum than select panni criminal work panna sollutha..... :think:

I am not blaming the society just for the sake of doing it... I am merely telling the REALITY / FACT / TRUTH .... Society la sila peru mattum thaan criminals aa irukkaanga nu solra... U HAVE THE ANSWER IN UR WORDS.... This simply goes on to show that the SOCIETY DOES NOT TREAT EVERYONE EQUALLY ..... Everything is biased... everything is segregated... based on sex... money... income.... Stature.. Education.... every goddamn reason can be found by the society to treat every single person in a different way...

Lucky for you, U are born well and u live a life thats being well and good.. and now U r sitting in front of the comp and taking part in an online debate / patti manram about whether a criminal shud be put to death or not...

BUT..... This is not the luxury that every individual enjoys....... And those who do not enjoy such luxuries right from birth to death, UNFORTUNATELY DO NOT ENJOY THEIR RIGHT TO LIVE THEIR OWN LIFE THE WAY THEY WANT TO ...... AND THATS WHEN CRIMINALS ARE BORN !!!!!!!!

Now U know why only a select few in the society become criminals.... Everyone is responsible for that... Dont U understand my prev posts ???

When I say everyone is responsible, I LITERALLY MEAN EVERYONE .. Either in a Direct / Indirect way... Including You, Me, And All the 5000 geethamites.....

And A small Request -- Dont keep repeating that I am luking from a criminals perspective... This is the second time u r saying this and I have already replied to you once that I am not ..... and another poster also shared my views !!!

And even if U still insist that I am luking from a criminals perspective, SO BE IT !! We are here for a Debate / Patti Manram... and here I am, saying "No" to the Main Question of the Patti Manram, and hence, It makes a whole lot of sense to say that I am luking from a criminals perspective....

Forget taking me for a ride and rather focus all your energy on defending your line of Arguement.. that wud be more sensible, ai'nt it ????

Cheers...

katteri
11-27-2003, 12:11 PM
Keeps society in better way

Not necessarily... There are worse things other than criminals to keep the society a real hell on Earth !! Dun blame them alone...
I do agree there are worst things .. but the topic is restircted to death sentence...(so i have to speak within the limitation)

A fear for every person to commit an offence

Not agreeable.... For example, sometimes I really feel like going out and killing someone coz in my eyes he is a total moron and a hopeless creature... but all the death sentences given till now have not deterred me from avoiding such acts !!!
Have u killed anyone .. no is the answer y i havent u killed anyone its bcos the fear ??????Its the fear and laws that makes an individual not commit a crime. each person want to have a happy life wihout much of work is it possible no , whenever we go to shop we c our purse and we purchase within our limitation .though we have an eye over the product which is out of our range .. do we try to steal it ..no bcos we think of consequences....say if ur aske to pay 10 rupees fine if ur ciaught every one wud take his chance.. on the other side if hes imprisoned .. willothers do ????

Time and resources of govt is not wasted

Crap... Dun talk repeatedly about the time and resources being wasted as part of the expenditure on Criminals and their rehabilitation !!! U waste much more hell of a money / resources on unnecessary things and in building up ur own personal assets !!! Get rid the society from the tax-evaders / politicians who amass wealth / and every goddamn moron the society encourages who is having more money than he has earned / deserves !!! naturally then this kinda complaint about money and resources being wasted wont be there....
Reply for the first applies here 2

Not every terrorist arrested are given death sentence in our country to get a death sentence is difficult.The judge takes much time and discussionb4 giving judgement.If he s given death senetcne in india.sure he deserves in each and every part of the world.

What quality does the so-called JUDGE possess other than having a degree next to his name ???? wat quality makes him worthy of killing someone in the name of justice ?? In my eyes I am the best Judge and there is no way someone else is gonna JUDGE HOW MY LIFE IS !! THis is the same that applies to everyone... Ofcourse since we have to have a rule of the land, we have to have these Judges and Jury's .... but no judge thinks on his own... He acts based on wat is said by the Prosecution / Defense... and as u know if U have a world class lawyer who can manipulate Law as ur defense attorney, then even the most "dangerous criminals" can get out of trouble.... dun tell me abt the Judges and their words... I wont buy it !! Sorry !! Cook up and gimme something better than that...'' pesanum ruthakaaka pesa kooddathu...appuram oru kelvi ketta rombha kovapaduveenke also other members vendam.....[/color[color=darkred]]....C whoever got an egnieering degree do they live a happy life -- ones psostion is not based only on his qualification.....U NEED MULTI QUALITY TO GET A JOB.....u wud have so many friends studying or studied law(practising ) how many of them have bcom judge.....
dont blame the society.. if u look from criminals perspective ull see society as criminals....see the other side of coin...where lot of great persons lived and r living....The reason u gave that society is making criminals.....if such is the case c the ratio of convicted criminals or atleast suspects to the population of society...Athu eppadi ya society sila pera mattum than select panni criminal work panna sollutha..... :think:

I am not blaming the society just for the sake of doing it... I am merely telling the REALITY / FACT / TRUTH .... Society la sila peru mattum thaan criminals aa irukkaanga nu solra... U HAVE THE ANSWER IN UR WORDS.... This simply goes on to show that the SOCIETY DOES NOT TREAT EVERYONE EQUALLY ..... Everything is biased... everything is segregated... based on sex... money... income.... Stature.. Education.... every goddamn reason can be found by the society to treat every single person in a different way...

Lucky for you, U are born well and u live a life thats being well and good.. and now U r sitting in front of the comp and taking part in an online debate / patti manram about whether a criminal shud be put to death or not...

BUT..... This is not the luxury that every individual enjoys....... And those who do not enjoy such luxuries right from birth to death, UNFORTUNATELY DO NOT ENJOY THEIR RIGHT TO LIVE THEIR OWN LIFE THE WAY THEY WANT TO ...... AND THATS WHEN CRIMINALS ARE BORN !!!!!!!!
'' ennaa solla varra -philosophy vendam''
Now U know why only a select few in the society become criminals.... Everyone is responsible for that... Dont U understand my prev posts ???

When I say everyone is responsible, I LITERALLY MEAN EVERYONE .. Either in a Direct / Indirect way... Including You, Me, And All the 5000 geethamites.....
PINATHATHE -IPPADI SOLLI IRUNTHA ORu SALUTE POTTU IRUPEEN every one is responsible for developing nation -- atha vuttuu.. OBVIUoSLY I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING A CRIMINAL PERHAPS U mIGHT BE...LETS ASK MEMBERS OF THEIR OPINION 2''And A small Request -- Dont keep repeating that I am luking from a criminals perspective... This is the second time u r saying this and I have already replied to you once that I am not ..... and another poster also shared my views !!!

And even if U still insist that I am luking from a criminals perspective, SO BE IT !! We are here for a Debate / Patti Manram... and here I am, saying "No" to the Main Question of the Patti Manram, and hence, It makes a whole lot of sense to say that I am luking from a criminals perspective....

Forget taking me for a ride and rather focus all your energy on defending your line of Arguement.. that wud be more sensible, ai'nt it ????
:b: '' THAPPA EDUTHU KATHE PA .. PATTI MANDRAM NA VIRUU VIRUPA THAN IRUKKUM ''' YOSITHCU NALLA PATHILA SOLLU ...any way congrats for ur good argument''' I think i am not hurting u ... ithu debate appadi than irukkum....

Cheers...

sweetie
11-27-2003, 12:43 PM
Kaatteriiiiii... Unnoda words leye unakku thevaiyaan replies um irukku.. Time irukkum pothu NEE yosichu paaru... naan ellam yosichu thaan pesaren....

** pesanum ruthakaaka pesa kooddathu ** -- Neenga enna panreenga nu konjam solla mudiyuma ????

**Have u killed anyone **

Very soon I mite KAATERI ...And dun repent if U r the victim... ;) ;) :P

**.. no is the answer y i havent u killed anyone its bcos the fear ??????**

Crap...... I wont take this... I dun have any fear for killing someone whom I think is really a pain in my life... AND EVEN IF SOME KINDA FEAR EXISTS IN ME (As U Claim... Athu eppadi enakku theriyaathathu unakku theriyum ??... ) I AM SURE THAT IS NOT THE FEAR FROM SEEING THE DEATH SENTENCES !!!!!! Got that ?!??!?!?!?!?!

sweetie
11-27-2003, 12:46 PM
[quote=katteri]

'' ennaa solla varra -philosophy vendam''



Ithaye nee Philosophy nu solra... appo unmaiyaagave philosophy pesinaa enna pannuva Kaateri ????

Life / Death varaikkum debate panreenga... appadi oru debate la Philosophy mattum ungalukku suit aagaliyo ??? Athe maathiri Oru dangerous criminal kku death sentence thaan suit aagum nu nee sonnena, naan athu vaendaam nu thaan solluven...

sweetie
11-27-2003, 12:57 PM
*** OBVIUoSLY I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MAKING A CRIMINAL PERHAPS U mIGHT BE... ***

Athu eppadi avalo sure aa solra KAATERI ???? Have u ever gone out of ur way of life and really did something to help the needy or help the people who are really having a tough time living in the society, becuase of the many many restrictions thrown on them ????

Have u ever ventured out to find out where these kind of people are living and did U ever think about asking them what their problem was ????

All this form a part of ur participation in the society's role in creating the so-called "dangerous criminals" .......

Eppadi oru criminal kku unnoda veetula adaikkalam kudutha athu kuttramo, athe maathiri thaan oruvanoda problems enna nu therinchukkaama IGNORE panrathum... I am not saying U r Ignoring it with purpose.... But Watever it is, U R DOING IT ... U R IGNORING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GONNA BE FUTURE CRIMINALS, JUST BECASUE THEY WERE DRIVEN BY THE SOCIETY TO THE EXTREME !!!

EVEN AS YOU AND I SPEAK HERE NOW, THERE ARE A THOUSAND MINDS THATS BEING TRANSFORMED FROM A PEACEFUL STATE TO A VIOLENT STATE !!!!

Do these kind of people who are being forced upon deserve a death penalty ????

Nope..... No way...

Okie.. Lets come to the SENSIBLE PEOPLE but those who go around raping girls / murdering their wives etc etc.....

Why are they doing it ???? Have U ever thought about the reasons behind it ???

its all in the mind Kaateri... Its all in the Mind !! They were not born rapists / murderers / Dowry snatchers..... They are all made...

So that dus not IN ANY WAY mean that U SHUD KILL THEM AND PUT AN END TO THEIR LIFE ..... U CAN SIMPLY LOCK THEM UP IN A CELL AND LET THEM LANGUISH IN THEIR PRISON FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE !!!!!!!

Let them REPENT HAVING DONE THAT CRIME WHICH LANDED THEM INSIDE FOUR WALLS AROUND A SMALL ROOM WITH NO PROPER FOOD / PLACE TO LIVE AND SURELY THEY WILL REPENT THEN .....

BUT SAYING THAT DEATH SENTENCE WILL TRANSFORM THE SOCIETY IS WAY BEYOND YOUR COMPREHENSION... THERE IS NOW WAY THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN...... They are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE !!!!!!!

Shy
11-27-2003, 07:26 PM
What justification will the family of the people who lost their lives in the hands of a Criminal GET by putting that Criminal to death ????

Justification is this. Take this sniper example. 12 families are hurt right. theres no justification we can give for them ever. I think u will accept this.
Now, I am 200% percent sure that theres no use in keeping him in prison so that he will learn/think/know his mistakes. I dont want him to repent for his actions. Whats the use he repenting?. But when I give a punishment like deth penalty like this to a this guy. Not only the families feel safe, but others will know the fear of doing something like this, as they know, when caugh death penalty is sure.

Oruthan, animal mathiri normal day to day people, kandapadeekku koonu pooduvaan, avanai we should keep in jail, feeding him with our tax money and make him understand his mistakes??? why???

antha 12 families kita poi kaelunga, do u want him to be kept in prison or death penalty'nu.. enna soluvaanganu theriyum// we arent hurt here, we didnt loose anyone so casually.. oru husband- cab driver, petrol adikum poothu was killed.. a wife when came out of a shppoing mall with her husbadn was killed... ask these peopole.. they know the loss of their loved.. Do u think its resonable and humane for these victim families to see the guy live forever till he die in prison, while their loved ones were taken away as such???

Bayam vaenum sweetie, next time eppadi pannina, avalavu thaan pudichaanga, nmaba gaalinu oru bayam vaenum.. appo thaan oru human being'ooda life'ooda importance theriyum. Thappu panninavan purichu, "ok naan thappu paennitaennu soluvaan, after 30 years in prison.. oru panel of people will sit and see if hes valid to go out..." Life in prison without parole ennannu nenaichutu erukeenga.. they can work u know... as a normal persons.. secured area, they can work, see families.. chumma oru kutty cell'la forever erupaangannu nenaikureengala.. namba kudukara TAX ellam engae pooguthu.. attached bathrrom.. common bathrrom kuda kedaiyaathu.. appadi avan jollya erukalaam...
But thuink about thefamilies who lost their loved ones...

Shy

suryalover
11-27-2003, 08:17 PM
I today watched Death Man walking movie..

Did anybody seen this movie?..

Very emotional...

Related to Death Sentece....

dinesh
11-27-2003, 08:43 PM
Not only the families feel safe, but others will know the fear of doing something like this, as they know, when caugh death penalty is sure.

The fear factor is a redundant argument as pointed out so many times in this topic. If people are afraid, then murders should've stopped happening long ago. It has not, so your point of fear is not valid.

Oruthan, animal mathiri normal day to day people, kandapadeekku koonu pooduvaan, avanai we should keep in jail, feeding him with our tax money and make him understand his mistakes??? why???

The money needed to spend for convicts, is a very paltry sum compared to what's being spent on Chief Ministers, Prime Ministers and local assembly memebers etc, and there is not much from them either. The question is compared to the value of human life what is the value of this feeding cost? Not much, I'm sure you'd agree.


Do u think its resonable and humane for these victim families to see the guy live forever till he die in prison, while their loved ones were taken away as such???

So your point is we should take revenge over these people? Why such an attitude? Is there going to be any good happening to the society by taking revenge? Do you really think the families of the affected will gain happiness over this revenge?


Bayam vaenum sweetie, next time eppadi pannina, avalavu thaan pudichaanga, nmaba gaalinu oru bayam vaenum.. appo thaan oru human being'ooda life'ooda importance theriyum

That is the point. Nobody is having that fear. If murderers had that fear, we'd see no murders happening these days. But since we are continuing to see murders, isn't it safe to assume this 'fear' point of view is not working?

But thuink about thefamilies who lost their loved ones...

What solace will they get by killing a guy?

Furthermore, a point which everybody has failed to see up until now is the circumstances of murders vary very much. For example we are failing to see the view of somebody who murders without any pre-meditation, just because of the circumstance? Is it just to kill this guy?
Also, how can a bunch of a dozen or so people decide whether a guy committed first degree murder? How can we be really sure? Assume a situation where a body is found with a knife having fingerprints of some guy, he guy is unable to provide an alibi and there was a history of feuds between this guy and the murdered person. Normally these circumstances should be able to convict him of murder. Now how many of you can come forward and say, 'Kill this guy'. That is what my main point is. Who can make sure absolutely a murder was committed by a person? And if can't be really sure, how can we kill this guy?


* All quotes by teacheramma shy. :D

Shy
11-27-2003, 09:41 PM
The fear factor is a redundant argument as pointed out so many times in this topic. If people are afraid, then murders should've stopped happening long ago. It has not, so your point of fear is not valid.

Fear factor is not redundant. How many countries accept death penalty for the worst crime? Except for middle east countries.. angae just for stealing ellam harsh punishments.. Compare the crime rate there and in india and other parts of the world. Even you, me and others fear to do any stupid things in those countried.. arent we? I am not saying what they do is correct. thats bit harsh.. But if there some organization, point out the rules and if we have a death penalty, I am sure crime rate will decrease allover. Eppo fear factor varathu.. yaen india'la kill panuravaen, burma, singapore, dubai'nu.. will try to escape, since indian rules cant do anything.. But if theres a common base rules somwhere.. and if its strict with DEATH PENALTY, entha fear factor will sure make a person to think before killing. Avanaala eppo mathiri oodi oluyaa mudiyaathu...

So my point still hold.. Fear factor is sure a plus.. since in long term is law is strict enough with punishments.. that fear will be helpful to decrease the crime rate.. Eppo many other escape avenues as I explained in the above para is available.. so FEAR FACTOR will not stop muderers solalaam.. but once streamlined.. it will.


The money needed to spend for convicts, is a very paltry sum compared to what's being spent on Chief Ministers, Prime Ministers and local assembly memebers etc, and there is not much from them either. The question is compared to the value of human life what is the value of this feeding cost? Not much, I'm sure you'd agree.

See, I know all mm.. sorry most of the politicians are corrupt and peoples ahard earned money is spent on them. That will can discuss in a different topic and I stand by you, that that spending is useless.

First lets see the case of India. Across India there are more than 20 million cases pending in the courts, including 3.6 million in the high courts. Many of those waiting for trial are held for lengthy periods in jail. Waitingla erukarathae evalavu naan, Just imagine are already in there..all over India.

I am not saying that there shouldnt be any prisoners or jail and kill everyone. Those you do petty crimes and also hurt ones like rape are in prison. We tax payers give them food, clothes and shelter and give them an oppurtunity to learn their mistakes. We know the value of these prisoners life... Even though they make mistakes, we dont take away their life and give them a chance to think over their mistakes.. dont we???

But think about the serial killers, mass muderers, terroists, serial rapists... child rapists and many more...They dont do these crimes by mistake.. They know what they are doing and they do something that the families have to suffer for their entire life. Life in prison without parole'la avangalai vachu.. avanga thaana saagara varaikum vachu what are u trying to prove... Avanganaala society enna use??? Politicians corrupted thaan i agree, but yaethaavathu onnu panuvaan, ellaina he cant withstand.. namba kita erunthu 100 dollars steal panninaalum, atleast 10 dolalrs will do something. But whats the gain in having these heartless murdeeres in jail forever??? That money spent, eventhough very minimal amount can be spent for one year education to orphan kids, one year dressing, one year food..

Example, gain I am taking this sniper.. he has been recommended death penalty for the first killings right now.. asuume he was given life in priosn without parole. Assume hes 40 yeasrs .. now.. he will life for upto 60 -70 right.. daily 3 meals..snacks... dresses till he die.. appo appo money for his work hes doing ... CANT we use this money in a useful way... to some deprived kids all over the world.. atleast valara kidskaavathu usefulla erukum ellai...


So your point is we should take revenge over these people? Why such an attitude? Is there going to be any good happening to the society by taking revenge? Do you really think the families of the affected will gain happiness over this revenge?

Nope.. no twisting my words here.. I didnt say revenge. Do u want to know whats the good its happening to the society. here they are

If cruel, worst times are done and proven, if this is law, then a person doing thing sliek that wil fear that hes gonna die when caught. Not like now, that "pakalaam, pudichaalum, naan saga mataen.. life in prison erukum.. but naan responsibla, disciplineda eruntha, i can get parole in 10 years..., athooda first ennai pudicha thanae, i will escape to other countries"

People can be life peacefully that the muderer is gone. Kids can be in safety. Ladies can be safe

Just ask the families that had lost the loved ones.. like in serial killings(body peices kuuda kedaikaathu...at time.. for months they will be searching as missing person.. appuram thaan pattern paathu.. oh ethu serial killing.. appadinu theriyum), terriotist attacks(many still dont have a proper body part for funeral).. ask these people.. will everyone say.. no let them go on in prison and we will cry daily thinking that... our loved ones had just disappeared..

Ask these families.. do u think, they will be happy that this thinking "their loved ones are gone forever.. morning tat sonoom, evening body kuuda varalai.. they person who did that will live till he dies in prison.."will be happy for them????

Furthermore, a point which everybody has failed to see up until now is the circumstances of murders vary very much. For example we are failing to see the view of somebody who murders without any pre-meditation, just because of the circumstance? Is it just to kill this guy?
Also, how can a bunch of a dozen or so people decide whether a guy committed first degree murder? How can we be really sure? Assume a situation where a body is found with a knife having fingerprints of some guy, he guy is unable to provide an alibi and there was a history of feuds between this guy and the murdered person. Normally these circumstances should be able to convict him of murder. Now how many of you can come forward and say, 'Kill this guy'. That is what my main point is. Who can make sure absolutely a murder was committed by a person? And if can't be really sure, how can we kill this guy?

first degree murder, second degree murder, assalutkku ellam death penalty keedaiyaathu.. first... Also only when proven 100% guilt I say that death penalty is ok.
WTC, Oklahoma, kashmir bomb, sniper attacks, serial killings, rapes..

100% guilt..example in a serial killing or raping... if the DNA from all points to the same person.. thats called 100% guilt...

Appo death penalty pathi yoisickarathula enna thappu???

Also.. u asked me "the murderer did not give a chance for the victim, we are also doing the same thing"

Yes we are. Only then he will feel how the victim would have felt when he/she cried to leave them and in vain died.

Murderer'a dealth penalty kudukarathae.. he didnt think abt them and killed when the victims cred for helpnu thaan.. appuram avanakku yaethuku oru chance.. When the victims cried for help.. is the last chance for the murderer to leave them without harming.. but he didnt right.. NO MORE SECOND CHANCE...

Shy
[/quote]

vasan
11-27-2003, 09:54 PM
No Shy. I think you are wrong...

Fear factor is redundant - merely because its is not effective. Quoting middle east is quite not relevant. I could also say another ten or so european countries where there is no death penalty and there is no 'violent' crimes either. Did they stop because they were afraid? (I don't want to talk about the justice system in middle east... if you are happy with that, then perhaps, for smaller crimes we will have to loose limbs). Oh, yes, in the same manner of inducing fear, why should not we chop a thiefs hands? Don't you think the society should benefit because of the fear it will induce in a would be stealers mind... No.

I have already said, earlier that the cost factor is illogical to argue. What else would we want to do to save money? Kill all the invalids (after all it may save the society a pretty penny??) That alone can never justify killing.

Killing is not ok, and because of that even though the criminals are parasites, a society can not but put them in jails.

Society need not give him a second chance at rehabilitation - justified. But society has also no right to take his life away. What is crime for the criminal is also a 'crime' (not legally, but ethically!) for the society. Whatever the reasons we may give for justifying death penalty, the final, ultimate result is that life is taken irrevocably - for which none of have any right.

Comenaughty
11-27-2003, 10:16 PM
Look into Death penalty as a way of punishing the hard core criminals. That is what they deserve. Why do you want to see that as a revenge?


i want to tell one thing, to all the ppl supporting death penalty...... consider this..... when a human is born, it is a celebrated and as such everyone is born as a baby, innocent, cute etc..... now take a particular case..... a baby whos is born to a rickshaw man ..... lets assume the rickshaw puller dies when his son is 5 yrs, leaving dozens of empty whiskey bottles to his son..... and mom jus leaves the kid somewhere in the dustbin.... (this is a very realistic situation)..... the poor kid grows up in garbage and lives in garbage..... dogs and pigs are his relatives..... THE HUMAN REFUSE IS HIS FOOD...... now, tell me.... this particular boy, who was born as human, but not bothered by the society, left with stray dogs in the garbage, will give any respect to the society?

ppl....this is how a criminal is created..... this kid, starts up with petty crimes.....then....robberies.. ...if stopped, he murders..... finally....becomes a hardcore criminal

now tell, who made him a 'hard core criminal'......ppl....this is how a hard core criminal is created in the society..... and the society is responsible for it.....

wat right does the society, which treated this person as piece of !@#$, have any right to take of life?

think ppl.....give this person a chance and try reforming him.... give him a life and im sure, he wont resort to nefarious activities....

naughty

Shy
11-28-2003, 12:04 AM
vasan...got some work to do.. will come back with counter points :)

Shy

vasan
11-28-2003, 12:14 AM
vasan...got some work to do.. will come back with counter points :)

Shy

OK... நாணம் (Hiya!!.. Shy-kku tamil translation, yeppadi? !! :D )

Ungaludaiya aruguments yellam padichu, usually I convert to a 'Pro Penalty" group, for about 5 milliseconds... then I change into my normal NO to penalty mindset... Please add more arguments and see if that time duration can be extended... (this is called throwing down a gauntlet !! vara vara yennakku romba thairiyam vandhuduchchu... Veeram !! Yellam "Veeram" appadinnu argue panninavar punniyam :lol: :lol: )...

Salutations and Happy thanksgiving !

sweetie
11-28-2003, 03:00 AM
*** But when I give a punishment like deth penalty like this to a this guy. Not only the families feel safe, but others will know the fear of doing something like this, as they know, when caugh death penalty is sure. *** -- From Shy

Not necessarily SHY .... Do U mean to say that the Death Penalty was INTRODUCED ONLY AFTER THE SNIPPER SHOOTINGS ???? It has been in existence for centuries.. BUT STILL JOHN MUHAMMED AND MALVO WENT AHEAD WITH THEIR TASK WITHOUT ANY FEAR, EVEN WHEN THEY KNEW THAT THEY WOULD FACE DEATH IF THEY ARE CAUGHT !!!

Now tell me... WHERE IS THE SO-CALLED FEAR FACTOR FROM PREVIOUS DEATH PENALTIES PLAYING A ROLE HERE ????

Are you people not understanding what I am trying to say.... Thirumba Thirumba Sonnathiye sollittu irukkeenga ??? DEATH SENTENCE NAALA ENNATHA PERIYA FEAR FACTOR PAATHUTEENGA ELLARUM ???? huhhhhhhhh

*** Oruthan, animal mathiri normal day to day people, kandapadeekku koonu pooduvaan, avanai we should keep in jail, feeding him with our tax money and make him understand his mistakes??? why??? *** -- From SHY

Go on SHY ...... U go ahead and show him that you can be a worse animal than him !! Afterall we are fighting a war for showing who is the worse animal right ?!?!?!?!? uhhhh...

*** Bayam vaenum sweetie, next time eppadi pannina, avalavu thaan pudichaanga, nmaba gaalinu oru bayam vaenum.. *** -- From SHY

SHOW ME WHERE U FIND THIS KIND OF BAYAM ........ And now... Dont give me the silly example of a student copying in an exam and getting debarred and the fear arising out of that.....

Ivalo centuries aa death sentence irunthum ella crimes nadanthuttu thaane irukku ??? Solrathu puryialaiya ungallukku ??? ENGA POCHU NEE SOLRA BAYAM ??? Grow up...

*** appo thaan oru human being'ooda life'ooda importance theriyum *** --- From SHY

Do U by any chance know the importance of Human Life ???? If U do, then I dont think U wud be vouching for a Death Sentence.. Manichu vidarathulla human life oda importance nirayave therichikkalaam....

See... the crime has been committed... A Person (Whether innocent or not) IS DEAD ALREADY !!! now whats the point of Going ahead and killing more people, and the people who killed that Innocent Guy !!! Thats called as revenge..... Ethukku nu kekkaren... BY KILLING THE CRIMINAL ARE YOU BY ANY CHANCE GOING TO BRING BACK THE LIFE OF YOUR LOVED ONE WHO IS DEAD ?????

WILL U BE SAYING THAT BY KILLING THE CRIMINAL THE SOUL OF YOUR LOVED ONE WILL REST IN PEACE ?????

Dun give me crap about all this (just in case u think of writing)... There is no soul to think after death.... all myth and reality.. So IN THAT CASE, BY KILLING THE CRIMINAL WHAT IS THAT U R TRYING TO ACHIEVE OTHER THAN THE ONE AND ONLY REASON BEING THE PERSONAL REVENGE FOR THE LOSS OF UR LOVED ONE !!

Please tell me if U have any benefit...

sweetie
11-28-2003, 03:10 AM
Example, gain I am taking this sniper.. he has been recommended death penalty for the first killings right now.. asuume he was given life in priosn without parole. Assume hes 40 yeasrs .. now.. he will life for upto 60 -70 right.. daily 3 meals..snacks... dresses till he die.. appo appo money for his work hes doing ... CANT we use this money in a useful way... to some deprived kids all over the world.. atleast valara kidskaavathu usefulla erukum ellai...

Shy
[/quote]

Nope SHY... That is not the case... Getting three meals a day is the basic right of a human being.... whether he is a criminal / a innocent baby !!! BUT DO U BY ANY CHANCE KNOW THE QUALITY OF THE FOOD THEY GET IN PRISON OR THE KIND OF CLOTHES THEY GET ???

Obviously U cant expect prisoners in Moscow to go around wearing a Cotton Khadi Kurta...... They wud freeze to death !!! huhhhhh

And Even then.... They get paid for working in the prison nu solriye... Dont U get the funda behind that ????

A PERSON WHO DOES NOT REPENT HIS CRIME WILL NOT WORK ALL THAT WELL IN THE PRISON AND HE WILL REVOLT, AS A RESULT OF WHICH HE WILL BE LOCKED UP IN ISOLATION... When a prisoner is working inside a prison and getting paid for that by the government, Then It simply means that He has realized his misdeeds and he wants to lead a life totally different from what landed him in Jail !!!!

Unnoda ella posts ume redundant aa thaan irukku SHY..... U keep on repeating the same old Money / Fear / Waste of Money and stuff like that..... And I guess U have gotta more than a dozen replies for those points by now... but U still keep saying the same thing again n again.....

I wont be surprised if U come back and Give the same points in ur next posting, with different wording !!!

sweetie
11-28-2003, 03:34 AM
Deprived Kids kku money kudukkalaam nu solriye ???? Have u ever put that into practice in ur life ?????

And dun tell me u can divorce the amount of money u "CLAIM" spending on Criminals and the amount of money u "WISH" could be better spent on Kids... LOOK closely... and U will find that U have enuff money to take care of both....

STARVING A CRIMINAL WITH REGARD TO FOOD AND CLOTHES DUS NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE SAME MONEY CUD BE USED FOR KIDS !!!

HOw may people ACTUALLY DO TAKE CARE OF THE UNDERPRIVILAGED IN THE SOCIETY ???? Ellam summa pesarathoda seri.... avalothaan !!!!

anainar
11-28-2003, 08:26 AM
Hey guys,

I was taking a three week vacation and am on a dial up in India. Dont want to get old waiting for 9 pages to load. I just cast my vote for yes.

In this world, it is all nice to talk about equality and right to live. As much as a terrorist or mass murderer deserves to live, so are the victims. I would not account fear factor as a major point. Those scum bags dont deserve to live in this world. Period.

A mass muderer, who kill 18 people for no reason, does not have any right to live. It might be eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, but that is it. The guys who drove planes and who conspired to kill 5000 innocent people dont deserve to live. Guys who drove car bombs into sleeping woman and children dont deserve to live. This might sound rhetorical, but it is not. Corrupt politicians, are social overheads of a democracy and we have to live with that. But not with those mindless mad people. I would not want to spend a single paise of my tax money to give them food or cloth to live in the society. I would rather have that money used to educate 10 children.

Cheers.

vasan
11-28-2003, 09:18 AM
When am I justified when I state: 'These people don't deserve to live'?

Every terrorist thinks that these people (the victims) ought to die... Didn't the latest ones claim death to... Didn't Hitler think that 'these people are scum, since they are not true blooded aryans, and they don't deserve to live...?' How many in the history have made such statements? When do we reject such 'ultimate judgements'?

Pretty much all the criminals for whom most people in this forum advocated death penalty (based on their vilest crimes) have also thought in some sense 'these people have no right to live', (or have all the right to be punished as a country... ).

I said no to death penalty because I simply refuse to believe that we have the final say on who has or has not the right to live.

Even if we can, argue and come to some decision on who has the right to live, as a society we still don't have the right to take away a life. Merely because you can't have the right to take away something, you don't have the power to create. Period.

sweetie
11-28-2003, 09:31 AM
In this world, it is all nice to talk about equality and right to live. As much as a terrorist or mass murderer deserves to live, so are the victims. I would not account fear factor as a major point. Those scum bags dont deserve to live in this world. Period.

A mass muderer, who kill 18 people for no reason, does not have any right to live. It might be eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, but that is it. The guys who drove planes and who conspired to kill 5000 innocent people dont deserve to live. Guys who drove car bombs into sleeping woman and children dont deserve to live. This might sound rhetorical, but it is not. Corrupt politicians, are social overheads of a democracy and we have to live with that. But not with those mindless mad people.

How wud u define "Mass Murderer" ????? George W Bush, who **INVADED** Iraq in the name of NEVER EXISTING Nukes is a Mass Murderer !!! Worse still, he has been the reason of not only others, but 500 of HIS OWN Countrymen......

Who Brought up THE TALIBAN ???? It was the Society.... The same Society that is fighting against it now....

Who is PROVOKING all these "Dont deserve to live" group of People ????? Dont Just blame them without any good reasoning !!! And JUST BY BASING THESE FACTS (Assuming I accept all that), THERE IS NO WAY YOU ARE GONNA JUDGE WHETHER THEY DESERVE TO LIVE OR NOT !!!

How dare you people (whose life is not a surety for longevity) Coolly claim that those people DONT DESERVE TO LIFE ????? huhhhhh...


I would not want to spend a single paise of my tax money to give them food or cloth to live in the society. I would rather have that money used to educate 10 children.

hahahahahaha.... The best JOKE of this TOPIC !!!! U people talk so much about educating the children / helping the needy / attending to the underprivileged !!! HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE REALLY DONE THAT TILL NOW ?????

HOW MANY EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT TILL NOW ??? JUST BECAUSE THIS TOPIC GIVES U A CHANCE U R LETTING ALL THE DECORATIVE WORDS / STATEMENTS OUT !!!!

Oh Yeahhh.. I Should have realised !! YOU People are more happy to spend every single paise of your TAX MONEY on the stupid and corrupt politicians, who are doing daylight robbery, but U dun wan to give a small amounf of money for keeping the criminals away from the society, away in Prisons on Life terms !!!

AS if You people NEVER EVER waste a Single Paise in ur life......

Dun gimme all this crap...... And there were so many posts about not getting linked up with money, but everyone who comes here with a message just get boiled down to that...

huhhhhh....

anainar
11-28-2003, 10:24 AM
Sweetie,

I meant tax payers money spent on maintaining such scum bags. I did not talk about money, but there were some discussions about money and hence wrote that. Well, to be honest, your statement that people dont think about charity is baseless. Many people do give money to educate children and feeding. I dont want to get into specifics,but your statement is sweeping and dead wrong.

I am asking you guys, what right those scum bags have to take others life? The morality of "we cannot create, so should not destroy" does not hold water at all. When those guys can think they have right to take some body else's life, for what ever reason, ideology or any such crap, they lose the right to defend their lives. The rule is the same whether it is Bush or Osama or Hitler. History is replete with such war mongers going down listlessly, dying a miserable death. It is sad that we dont have international laws, that can differentiate things.

My reasoning is very simple. I agree that, we should not destroy something that we cannot create. But this rule does not apply to people who dont believe in it. The moment he violates this golden rule, he does not deserve this rule. You cant have the cake and eat the cake. As simple as that.

Sweetie, to answer your question about money( though I hate to do that ) whether I waste 1 Re or 100000 Re on a politician is my prerogative. But that does not mean, I have to spend that money on maintaining a scumbag who killed 18 people, with the hope that he might correct himself after 10000 years.

Cheers

sweetie
11-28-2003, 10:38 AM
You keep talking about ur own actions as being prerogative ......... but they dun seem to be !!!!

Whatever scum bag reasoning u give for the same to be put to death, it dus not stand in good taste .... afer all U r talking a life about to be lost... not about the life that has already been lost.. coz they are not going to come back in anyway....

katteri
11-28-2003, 11:10 AM
how laws came into force:
In the primitive ages ,when there was no civilisation and people got everything from the nature.Food shelter etc...
When the will for desire increased either due to increase in human population or change in male /female ratio.Problems started......
People want more----aasai e azhivukku arikuri....
They want to make some agreement between teh community they lived
They forumulated their own set of agreement..thats the reason laws are not universal..Peoples view over laws differ,... for eg Some might say a death sentence is a must for a rape conviction...But some may argue to errr is human and to forgive is divine...where they discuss abt human rights...and value of human life...whatever the circumstance '' attempts were made and also being made to bend the law to their will'''for the so called strong persons prevailing in the community.There are examples in the history(madhu needhi cholan) and currenlty to adhere with the rules.
thats how even Quality management and environmental managemnt system evolved now 'DO WHAT YOU SAY AND SAY WHAT YOU DO''
its upto the companies whether to adopt...so the people tend to find loop holes to escape from these.......
If u look at the % of death sentence given againts the % of convicton its less than 0.5% though i cant prove it but its a fact...
There are proverbes in tamil oru vooru nallla irruka oru vettai thiyagam panna nalla irukkum...so it goes.......
For the safer life of 99.5% of population death sentence onnum thappu illai......

sweetie
11-28-2003, 12:45 PM
There are proverbes in tamil oru vooru nallla irruka oru vettai thiyagam panna nalla irukkum...so it goes.......

This is what the criminal also did right ??? According to him, and according to his eyes and priorities and judgements and prerogations, he felt that the supposed victim can make a sacrifice for the benefit of the society and thats why he killed them.....

katteri
11-28-2003, 02:20 PM
There are proverbes in tamil oru vooru nallla irruka oru vettai thiyagam panna nalla irukkum...so it goes.......

This is what the criminal also did right ??? According to him, and according to his eyes and priorities and judgements and prerogations, he felt that the supposed victim can make a sacrifice for the benefit of the society and thats why he killed them.....
U cant take law into u r own hands ....
We r not disccusing abt evils in society.....

katteri
11-28-2003, 02:26 PM
This is what the criminal also did right ??? According to him, and according to his eyes and priorities and judgements and prerogations, he felt that the supposed victim can make a sacrifice for the benefit of the society and thats why he killed them.....
Moreover u also say its right to kill a person .. which contradicts ur earlier posts supporting value of human life......
Y u r criminal didnt respect human rights and value, he himself violates law,
So u agree that for betterment of society its better to kill people who r evils to society...Sofia its time for judgement....

sofiadorathy
11-28-2003, 03:22 PM
Hey peoples enna pa ithellaaaam??????? 1 day le ithana very long essay-vaaa adichu irukeeenga????? 1 1/2 hours aayidukku itha vaasikka
ufff..... Really gr8...Expect more from u ppls....

Thank u bye bye

Be Happy...

sweetie
11-28-2003, 03:34 PM
Katteri ... I am not saying it is right to kill a person.. I STILL MAINTAIN THAT AS MERE MORTALS, WE DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE AWAY HUMAN LIFE, WHETHER IT BE IN THE NAME OF LAW OR FOR THE SAKE OF BETTER SOCIETY !!!!

The Reason I worded that post was becuase U Keep talking about the GOOD THAT WILL DONE FOR THE SOCIETY BY PUTTING A CRIMINAL TO DEATH... SO I WAS JUST JUSTIFYING YOUR IDEAS AND VIEWS.....

Now U know how it hurts and whose opinions are needed to be thought about again !!!!

Shy
11-28-2003, 05:45 PM
Sweetie,


I wont be surprised if U come back and Give the same points in ur next posting, with different wording !!!

I wont be suprised either becasue this is game of words and everyone should be talented in that.

Ok coming to tha main discussion, did some futher research with my thoughts... here we go..

may be u have understood what we are trying to say as this .We kill people to show people that killing people is wrong. so your stating that we are doing the same mistake they did and we should show them some humanity and stuff right. Ok.

First of all, I missed this. The death penalty does not punish people for killing, but for murder.
Killing is justified when it is done in self-defense. Killing means to cause death. Murder, on the other hand, is defined as, "the unlawful and malicious or premeditated killing of one human being by another"
Just because two actions result in the same end does not make them morally equivalent.
If it were so, legal incarceration would be equated with kidnapping, lovemaking with rape, self-defense with assault, etc.

Therefore, the better thing to say is this "We execute people to show people that murder is wrong."

The main thing roaming around in this discussion is thiis -Morality - the principles of right and wrong. As moral beings, humans deserve praise for good deeds, and punishment for bad ones. you accept this right?Punishment may range from a slap on the wrist to death, but the punishment must fit the crime. This is known as "an eye for an eye."

Abolitionists often insist that if we argue for "an eye for an eye." justice we must be prepared to rape rapists, beat sadists, and burn down the houses of arsonists. Certainly, this is the case if we take the "an eye for an eye." literally, and the criminals do deserve those punishments, but we needn't take it literally. Then u migh t ask, if it is not morally okay to rape rapists, is it acceptable to execute murderers? The answer is simple. There is no redeeming value to carrying out the former punishment. Raping the rapist will only cause someone else to degrade themselves by doing it. It will not prevent the rapist from raping again. Executing murderers, however, prevents them from committing their crime again, and thus protects innocent victims.
The good, thus, outweighs the bad, and the executioner is morally justified in taking the murderer's life.

On the other hand, if the abolitionist argues that killing is always wrong, then he must also concede that killing in self-defense is unacceptable and should be punished. Few, if any, however, are willing to do so. The abolitionist may choose to argue that the state should never kill. But consider also the scenario of protecting someone else's life. Are police officers (the state) justified in killing attempted murderers to save a victim's life? If the answer to this question is yes, then no moral arguments will stand up against the death penalty.

Morally, it is wrong to incarcerate someone for murder. A sentence of life in an air-conditioned, cable-equipped prison where a person gets free meals three times a day, personal recreation time, and regular visits with friends and family is a slap in the face of morality.


People will say here that not all prisons are like the one cited.This betrays an ignorance, however, of current trends. Eventually, criminal rights activists will see to it that all prisons are nice places to go. But regardless of the conditions of a particular prison, someone who murders another human being can only be made to pay for his actions by forfeiting his own life.


This is so, simply because a loss of freedom does not and cannot compare to a loss of life.

If the punishment for theft is imprisonment, then the punishment for murder must be exponentially more severe, because human life is infinitely more valuable than any material item.

sofiadorathy
11-28-2003, 05:59 PM
Oru line vaaarthaikku ivalavu line-aaa My God..... enakku ipdi ellam pesa varaaathu please ppls dont mind my post as a post still I have marked the word Important Notice...... I m just trying to make this Forum forum with some goood comments but I couldnt do that properly...sorry yaaar.....

Soon I will try this...Dont worry...

Thank u

Bye Bye....

Be Happy...

anainar
11-28-2003, 06:01 PM
Shy,

My captatin, pottu thaakiteenga, super. super. :clap: :clap:

I dont agree with the argument that the muderer has taken away a life. Even if you kill him it is not going to comeback. So we should not execute the murderer. That is absurd argument and does not hold anywater. Then how does the murderer pay for his sin? Sitting in A/C jail like Shy said? You guys are so concerned about the rights of a murderer, what about the right of the persons murdered by the same guy? Dont their lives have any value?

Shy raised a very good point about killing in self defense. How is that accounted for in the morality "We dont create, so we should not destroy?" Should I give up my life if attacked upon by some guy? Or will these morality talkers give up their life if attacked? Super point Shy :clap:

Cheers.

sofiadorathy
11-28-2003, 06:10 PM
enakku oru doubt aanai, neeenga eppavumey avungalukku thaaan suppport pannuveeeeengala???? once neeenga avungalukku oppose panni pesi paaarunga....Then it will be quite interesting....neeeenga next pattimandram topic-le naaan sonnatha follow pannunga....

Important Notice:
Next PAttimandram will be very critical than this...


Thank u for reading my post carefully....


Be Happpy...

arumugam57
11-28-2003, 06:41 PM
enakku oru doubt aanai


Athu " aanai" kedayathu.. "Yaanai".. Enge sollunga paapoom.. "Yaanai "



Next PAttimandram will be very critical than this...


"very critical then this" is a topic of patti manram?. Meaningless topic.

============================== ================
I think anainaar is just doing "ottunni " life. Means matha jeevaraasigalai saarthu vaazthal. Ofcourse he is depeding on Shy for defending his topic.
So he won't go to the enemy camp and will loose the topic.

============================== ================

Please continue the topic.. I will join later. Cheers

Shy
11-28-2003, 06:41 PM
How wud u define "Mass Murderer" ????? George W Bush, who **INVADED** Iraq in the name of NEVER EXISTING Nukes is a Mass Murderer !!! Worse still, he has been the reason of not only others, but 500 of HIS OWN Countrymen......

Examples Mass Murderer :

(1) Killing some 5000 people on their day to day work, people who thought they will return back home to their loved ones, people who havent had a chance to talk in their last minute of their life. people whose kids are orphans right now, havent seen their father, mother, brother whoever it is.. killing such innocent people in mass.
(2) Sniper attacks. normal work panrathuku kuuda bayama eruka vacha those guys. daily kids school'la erunthum, husband/wife work erunthum uyriooda varanum'nu think pana vachu those guys. Simply, a shitty person who had the mentality to kill a school going kid.
(3) Kashmir bombing. Oklahomba bombing, Coimbatore Bombing.. u name it..

Who did this are called mass muderers.


Who Brought up THE TALIBAN ???? It was the Society.... The same Society that is fighting against it now....

Please, thats a different topic. athuku oru separate discussionae panalaam..anyway...Did the society asked osama to kill, kidnapp planes and do all sorts of inhumane thing. Anthaa koran'la soli eruake.. we shouldnt harm others'nu.. appo enna problem erunthaalum, humane'a eruka vaendiyathu thaane. MAHATAMA GANDHI mathiri.. avara vidavaa osama was hurt so much??? DONT GIMME THE CRAP THAT SOCISTY IS CREATING THEM... Antha mathiri ways ellam erunthum, Osama will kill, blast all human beings..ALL THOSE INNOCNET HUMAN BEINGS.. Anna..neenga aiyo pavam.. society made him like thisnu soluveengalaam.. nalla erukae kathai..Unga humane explanationa paathu.. IS OSAMA HUMANE'a solunga?
Thappu panravanae.. society thaan create panathhu soluveenga.. Hes human right.. doesnt he have any common sense.. the 6th sense, specific to human. To think whats good and bad. what crap is that "SOCIETY IS CREATING" .. I dont accept that.. If you are human.. you got to know whatever ur doing in ur life whether its good or bad.


Who is PROVOKING all these "Dont deserve to live" group of People ????? Dont Just blame them without any good reasoning !!! And JUST BY BASING THESE FACTS (Assuming I accept all that), THERE IS NO WAY YOU ARE GONNA JUDGE WHETHER THEY DESERVE TO LIVE OR NOT !!!
How dare you people (whose life is not a surety for longevity) Coolly claim that those people DONT DESERVE TO LIFE ????? huhhhhh...

Why shouldnt we dare. There are certain rules in this world arent they.. i think u will probably will now start asking.. "HOW DARE THEY CAN MAKE SOME RULES AND ASK ME TO FOLLOW. ITS MY LIFE AND I WILL LIFE AS PER MY WISH".wont u?

So lead the human society in a proper good path. there are certain set of rules. Those to dont accept or did not follow these rules are harm to the human society and should be punished. Athu matum othukureenga ellai.. Appo u dont dare'a? oru stock scandal'la thappu panninavan... 10-20 years prison'la utkaara vaikureenga ellai.. appo u dont dare taking away his freedom????answer me that...


Coolly claim that those people DONT DESERVE TO LIFE ????? huhhhhh...

I still cant digest this line... What do u mean by "coolly we claim...." we arent the ones who

(1) Coolly plan when to kill the victim
(2) Coolly think of ways to escape
(3) Coolly move on with the life once murdered someone
(4) MOST IMPORTANTLY, COOLY DECIDE TO MUDER SOMEONE AND DECIDE THAT THE VICTIM DONT DESERVE TO LIFE AND KILL THEM.

Even though the muderer is caught, WE DONT ISSUE DEATH PENALTY THE NEXT DAY AND EXECUTE THEM THE DAY AFTER.

There are long trials. jury discussions, prefect evidence and many otehr things. Athu ellam confirm aanathuku appuram , when hes PROVEN OF GUILT, ONLY THEN HES EXECUTED.

BUT AGAIN.. that too, not like how they killed their victims, by

(1) cutting of the heads, killing with knife and leaving them to bleed
(2) Raping them till they bleed and then killing them
(3) kidnap, torture them and finally whn bored, COOLY KILL THEM...

Eppadi panalai government..

Lethal injection, electric chairs.. etc.. ethu thaan... NOT EVEN THE SUFFEREING THE VICTIMS HAD..REMEMBER. BUT ALL WE WANTED TO SAY IS A PERSON WHO MUDER SOMEONE WILL BE KILLED TO SHOW THAT MUDERING SOME OTHER HUMAN BEING IS WRONG.


hahahahahaha.... The best JOKE of this TOPIC !!!! U people talk so much about educating the children / helping the needy / attending to the underprivileged !!! HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE REALLY DONE THAT TILL NOW ?????

HOW MANY EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT TILL NOW ??? JUST BECAUSE THIS TOPIC GIVES U A CHANCE U R LETTING ALL THE DECORATIVE WORDS / STATEMENTS OUT !!!!

Sweetie,

I am really very upset to hear from you like this. You know what let me tell u something. Whether u belive it or accuse us again, I DONT CARE.... U know what we few friends here are doing. each year in our community we collect some money in the start of the year and we are giving that money to the 10 orphan kids back in our country for their education, food and clothes (1 year expenses, in brief).
Ethu solanumnnu ellai, but sonaen, just because u said that we are just using decorative words, I really got frustrated. Not only me, we around 30 people here are doing this for many years. not only here, there are many organizations doing this all over the world.... Dont degrade everyone. many are truthful and are doing what they can. even if its 10 dollar.its 500ruppes for a orphan kid remember....


Oh Yeahhh.. I Should have realised !! YOU People are more happy to spend every single paise of your TAX MONEY on the stupid and corrupt politicians, who are doing daylight robbery, but U dun wan to give a small amounf of money for keeping the criminals away from the society, away in Prisons on Life terms !!!

India for example is corrupted.. yes we agree.. we got to live with that...not only in india, everywhere its corrupted.. so athunaala... since we digest politicians who eat away our money, u ask us to digest murderes you take away our loved ones.. what logic is this.. dont gimme crap of talking abt politicians and all. Thos are differen type of criminals.. TALK ABT PEOPLE WHO TAKE WHO KILL UNLAWFULLY, PREPLANNED OTHER HUMAN BEING WITHOUT ANY LAWFULL REASON

AS if You people NEVER EVER waste a Single Paise in ur life......

What do u mean by waste. Spending lavishly for myself and my family is a waste. why do u care. I want my family to be luxury I spend what i earn, i deserve that. How can u categorize what I spend as waste and not? I spend for poilticians, because its a corrupted country... I spend for my children education.. because i have to. I pay taxes... for the betterment of my society not for some idiot who killed someone. Thats a a waste for me.

Simplea onnu soluraen..

Oru beggar.. very old man.. cant even walk and work.. hes begging for food.
another beggar, a youthful, vatasaataman guy.. udama nalla iruku.. mootai thooni can work and earn..

Who will u feel to give ur hard earned money... paavma irukura antha old man'ka ellai antha youth'ka..

Old man is this society... its very deprived with corruptions and greediness everywhere.. But I am happy I am doing something for the betterment of my society.
Youth man is the murderer(To be taken as per for this example). Why should I give him my money, what did he do to deserve that???

Shy


Shy

Shy
11-28-2003, 06:47 PM
anainar,

I miss you in my sword fight here.. but anyway.. thakku pudikuraen.. appo appo vanthu unga points solitu poonga..

Hope you are having fun there... And eveyone well and good..

Ingae enakku orae fuming with jealousy..."India'la erukeenga" ellai .. mmm 2-3 months thaan naanum poovaenae indiakku...:)

Enjoy each and every moment with ur family and relatives...

Shy

Shy
11-28-2003, 06:50 PM
I think anainaar is just doing "ottunni " life. Means matha jeevaraasigalai saarthu vaazthal. Ofcourse he is depeding on Shy for defending his topic.
So he won't go to the enemy camp and will loose the topic.


Aiyo, Thappu understand pannierukeenga anainaar 'a neenga.. avar eppo oorathula erunthu vaedikai paathutu appo appo small comments kuduthutu erukaar... kalathula jump panninaar.. enga ellaraiyum undu ellainu panniduvaar...

Yaethoo Indiala konjam busy avar.. athaan, ennai paesavitu paathutu erukaar..:)

Shy

madhu_aish1
11-28-2003, 07:54 PM
Shy ,

I appreciate you tactics in the war of words. Looks Like a stampede to me .. :b: But when it comes to reality fact rule the world and whatever you have said would become just part of the record.



The death penalty does not punish people for killing, but for murder.

Therefore, the better thing to say is this "We execute people to show people that murder is wrong."


First of all it is hard to classify the type of murder from its degree or numbers..

The death penalty is the ultimate denial of human rights. It is a premeditated and cold-blooded killing of a human being by the state in the name of justice. The finality and cruelty inherent in the death penalty render it incompatible with norms of modern-day civilized behavior and an inappropriate and unacceptable response to violent crime.Moreover, It is the irrevocable nature of the death penalty that makes it so tempting as a tool of repression. Thousands have been put to death under one government only to be recognized as innocent victims when a new government comes to power. As long as the death penalty is accepted as a legitimate form of punishment, the possibility of political misuse will remain. Only abolition can ensure that such political abuse of the death penalty will never occur.



The abolitionist may choose to argue that the state should never kill. But consider also the scenario of protecting someone else's life. Are police officers (the state) justified in killing attempted murderers to save a victim's life? If the answer to this question is yes, then no moral arguments will stand up against the death penalty.

I dont think this is a relevant example to the current topic. We are talking about a situation where we are putting a person on trial and then issusing death penalty.. Here we got the time and ability to discuss the potential it's and but's of the situation..


(2) Sniper attacks. normal work panrathuku kuuda bayama eruka vacha those guys. daily kids school'la erunthum, husband/wife work erunthum uyriooda varanum'nu think pana vachu those guys. Simply, a shitty person who had the mentality to kill a school going kid.


It is incorrect to assume that people who commit such serious crimes as murder do so after rationally calculating the consequences. Often murders are committed in moments when emotion overcomes reason or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Some people who commit violent crimes are highly unstable or mentally ill (paranoid schizophrenia) None of these cases can the fear of the death penalty be expected to deter.

The fact that no clear evidence exists to show that the death penalty has a unique deterrent effect points to the futility and danger of relying on the deterrence hypothesis as a basis for public policy on the death penalty. The death penalty is a harsh punishment, but it is not harsh on crime.


Even though the muderer is caught, WE DONT ISSUE DEATH PENALTY THE NEXT DAY AND EXECUTE THEM THE DAY AFTER.

There are long trials. jury discussions, prefect evidence and many otehr things. Athu ellam confirm aanathuku appuram , when hes PROVEN OF GUILT, ONLY THEN HES EXECUTED.


Whatever you say is at that instance of time..It might be rightful to you, but the Execution order removes the possibility of compensation for judicial error or rehabilitation of the convicted.As long as a prisoner remains alive he or she can hope for rehabilitation or for exoneration in the case of a prisoner who is subsequently found to be innocent.

..As you say ... My sword rest now peacefully atleast for a couple of minutes ... :D

Madhu

Shy
11-29-2003, 01:50 AM
First of all it is hard to classify the type of murder from its degree or numbers.

I agree madhu, I am not stating that we have to issue death penalty on each and every murder cases. Obviously state wont issue a death penalty on a guy who murdered his neighbor or some fight. As you say there might be many reasons for that murder.. he might be insane.. emotional urge at that instant etc.

But we can issue death penalty and think of issuing death penalty on cases like

(1) Mass Murderers
(2) Terrioists
(3) Serial rapists
(4) Serial Killers
(5) To be more specific, in situations for scott perterson too, if hes proven guilty for murdering his pregnant wife and unborn son. Even thoush he might arranged someone, if its premediated.. killing and if its proved.


The death penalty is the ultimate denial of human rights. It is a premeditated and cold-blooded killing of a human being by the state in the name of justice.

I dont accept the fact that always we talk about human rights... only when it comes to the murderer??? suprising aint? what about the victim??? The murderer in his same thinking, preplaned his killing. he decided to take some ones life, someday.. Isnt that called the COLD BLOOD MURDER?...


Thousands have been put to death under one government only to be recognized as innocent victims when a new government comes to power.

There is absolutely no proof for this statement. Give me one example where a innocent human being is put to death. Also, do u know right know in california alone, they had accpeted more than 2000 cases to change from death penalty to life in prison without parole.

Before any person is executed in USA, twelve members of a carefully selected jury have to decide -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- that a defendant is guilty. The possibility of an innocent person being executed is extremely small, and continues to decrease with the improvement of forensic science. Till that minute of execution, if proven innocent, he can just walk away.

It is true that death row prisoners have been released, but it is not true that they were innocent.

While there is no proof that any innocents have been executed in this century, there is an abundance of evidence that prisoners who either escaped or were released early murdered innocent victims again. Whats your say on this?

Statistics..At least five federal prison officers have been killed since December 1982, and the inmates in at least three of the incidents were already serving life sentences for murder.
Had these prisoners been executed, innocent lives would have been saved. The death penalty is, without question, a deterrent to murder.


The death penalty as a deterrent to crime is not the issue. Capital punishment is, pardon the redundancy, a punishment for crime. As a punishment, the death penalty is 100% effective--every time it is used, the prisoner dies

Likewise, if a conviction is reversed on appeal because the evidence of guilt was legally insufficient to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then the defendant cannot be retried.

Furthermore, if a court decides that the evidence brought against the defendant was legally insufficient, it is not saying that the defendant was actually innocent. By making this decision, the court is merely saying that the prosecution did not prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt


I dont think this is a relevant example to the current topic. We are talking about a situation where we are putting a person on trial and then issusing death penalty.. Here we got the time and ability to discuss the potential it's and but's of the situation..

No madhu, its relavant..we are talking about morality here.. you tell me that "Death Penalty is a premeditated and cold-blooded killing of a human being by the state in the name of justice. "
Then answer me this. consider the scenario of protecting someone else's life. Are police officers (the state) justified in killing attempted murderers to save a victim's life? You know that its prplanned in the department that u can kill on the spot if u see that someones is trying to kill someone right???


It is incorrect to assume that people who commit such serious crimes as murder do so after rationally calculating the consequences. Often murders are committed in moments when emotion overcomes reason or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. Some people who commit violent crimes are highly unstable or mentally ill (paranoid schizophrenia) None of these cases can the fear of the death penalty be expected to deter.

Dont even think about it madhu.. You know there are trials where thay defend themselves in the reason of Insanity. Whatever you said its comes under this. DONT OFTEN THIS LINE "Often murders are committed in moments when emotion overcomes reason or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. "..

Did the terriosts you flew the plane into WTC, under the influence of alcohol or emotion. The preplanned this stuff. They took the flying education for months and planned for this day?? Do u think they DONT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING?

About sniper attacks too, I wont accept ur explanation. That guy had the kid as his killer machine. brain washed him and made that kid do all the killings. Do u think he was influeenced by alcohol or something...SIMPLY NO. Just because the Police chief said, that day all kids are safe in school, The next day he tried to kill a school going kid
HE knew what he was doing. he preplanned each and every thing, waited for hours for victims.. Dont gimme this madhu, that all these cruel crimes are fluenced by some emotion or something..

As u said, there are many crimes like that, but none are issued death penalty, remember


Whatever you say is at that instance of time..It might be rightful to you, but the Execution order removes the possibility of compensation for judicial error or rehabilitation of the convicted.As long as a prisoner remains alive he or she can hope for rehabilitation or for exoneration in the case of a prisoner who is subsequently found to be innocent.

Well, as I said earlier, till that minute of execution, the muderer is given chance to prove if hes innoence. Ans theres no case anywhere that an innocent is put to death. This will explain the judical error.

About rehabilitation of the convicted too, thats where the whole discussion lies right

We must never forget that no one has to be executed; if no one murders, no one is executed. Murderers are not innocent people fighting for their lives; that statement describes their victims.

Sword rests. :)

Shy

sweetie
11-29-2003, 04:30 AM
*** Executing murderers, however, prevents them from committing their crime again, and thus protects innocent victims. ***

Not necessarily......... Ofcourse if you execute a PERSON (MURDERER) HE will OBVIOUSLY be NOT ABLE TO COMIT THE CRIME AGAIN, Coz he is DEAD !!!

What about the thousand others who dont value these executions in any way ???? They will still go about doing what they want....

sweetie
11-29-2003, 04:46 AM
Shy.... That was a really great n cool arguement..... Hats off to you !!

And I did not mean to accuse anyone here.. I was just throwing questions at you people... Afterall, thats wat a patti manram is supposed to be right ??? Sorry if I'd hurt you !!! I know there are many people who do good deeds like the ones U have mentioned and even I do.. I am not denying it... It was just a question !! Cheers..

And coming to the reply to your big big posts, I am sorry I not able to spend time now and reply to every single point u have listed out ...

But what I can say is that no matter how u wud justify the killing of a criminals, however dangerous he is, I wud justify for the same criminals to be NOT KILLED and instead given a life term and put in isolation... Morality and consicence does not seem to play a part here, because most of these murders and dangerous crimes committed (ofcourse some are planned) are all happening even before u cud realise it has happened...

All the morality and the society' good and wellbeing do not stand the test of time... It is very easy to say that criminals who casued of loss of loved ones need to be put to death in the same way... but that simply means that U also want to get addicted to that single moment of madness which made the criminal commit the crime in the first place ... Why do U wanna do that ?? Then what is the difference between you and the criminal ??? How wud u divorce the fact that the criminals was totally not needed in the society and that you are the most welcome to the kill the criminal in turn ?

All these talk about fear in the future criminals / good for the society will not stand time when there are so many other factors to screew up these issues !!!

Trying to prove once innocence and if he is not able to do that, then putting him to death, etc etc is in the same vein too.... Everything boils down to your WAYS AND MEANS TO FIND A REASON TO KILL THE CRIMINAL... EVERYTHING BOILS DOWN TO THE FACT THAT YOU ARE TRYING IN DIFFERENT AVENUES TO JUSTIFY THE MURDER YOU DO - THE KILLING OF A CRIMINAL !!!

anainar
11-29-2003, 05:09 AM
enakku oru doubt aanai, neeenga eppavumey avungalukku thaaan suppport pannuveeeeengala???? once neeenga avungalukku oppose panni pesi paaarunga....Then it will be quite interesting....neeeenga next pattimandram topic-le naaan sonnatha follow pannunga....
Be Happpy...

Fosia, I did have fights with Shy in topics where we were in opposite camps. In fact it is me who gave her the pattam "Vaal(sword) Veeranganai", Veecharuval Vellayamma". You should read some of those posts, where sparks flew. But where we are in the same camp, she is my captain. Avlo thaan. Avanga levelukku naanum sword veesina, the opposite camp will be demolished in no time. So, when she is in full swing, I take a back seat and enjoy the arguments. It is like watching Tendulkar batting in the non striker's end. :D :D :D Awesome arguments Shy. :clap: :clap:

Coming back to the topic, about the point raised by Sweetie, about the difference between the criminal and people who want to put him to death, the difference is we dont want to act in haste or carried away by emotions and execute the other person. It goes through a process of objective assessement of whether the murderer did it knowingly, with ulterior motives and it is not decided by one persons. By a collection of jurors or judges looking at all aspects. It might take years, but, end of the day, that is the difference. Executing a murderer is not emotional decision. It is well thought out decision, while the murderer's decision is not.

Cheers.

Shy
11-29-2003, 06:18 AM
Sofia... read my earlier post abt anainar .. as he said.. hes the back seat driver right now...
avar vanthaa.. oppostite team gaali :)

Catch u all tomorrow.. goodnite...

Shy

sweetie
11-29-2003, 06:20 AM
ANAINAR ... How can u say that a JURY's decision about Murdering.... Oopppss... Executing a Person is well thought out, but a Murderers Decision to kill someone is not ???? I dun understand.... Most of the Murders and Killings are all for a reason which seems to be the right thing to do in the "Eyes of the Murderer" ..... Ofcourse he wud have given it a hell lot of thought coz he obviously knows that he will land in trouble once he commits the crime... still he did it... so now U can see that He ofcourse had a reason and also he did not have the so-called fear you people claim the death sentences will instill in the mind of the public....

Murderers do their own bit based on their own judgements... for their own experiences in life which has driven them to these extremes in criminal activities.... U cannot blindly say that it is well thought out...

Rather on the contrary, the JURY's decision is simple and solely and only based on what the Prosecution says... it is in no way based on a "well thought out" process... They just listen to the prosecution and refer to the evidence and finally get back to the basics of the law books and pronounce the judgements.... thats it !! Where is it being well thought about.... For instance when a criminals pleads guilty to his crime, what is the need of a prosecution or where is the need for a well thought out process ??

no one luks at the background and the true origin of a crime and the reasons the crime was committed.... All that we do is just catch the criminal, stand him in court just for the name-sake judicial process and put him to death if U deem it fit.... Mark my words... if YOU deem it fit.. all that I am asking is when u urself have a life thats limited in the number of years and that which has no guarantee to go the full mile due to obvious reasons, why / what / how wud YOU say another person is fit to die or not ?? Just being a dangerous criminal does not qualify a person to be put to death !!

sweetie
11-29-2003, 06:21 AM
Opposite team gaali gaali nu summa vaarthaiyaala sollittu irukaateenga.... vanthu unga vaarthai enna nu thaan ellarukkum kekkara maathiri sollunga... appuram paarkkalaam.... ;) ;)

sofiadorathy
11-29-2003, 07:12 AM
Opposite team gaali gaali nu summa vaarthaiyaala sollittu irukaateenga.... vanthu unga vaarthai enna nu thaan ellarukkum kekkara maathiri sollunga... appuram paarkkalaam


yeah yeah sweetie is correct....Aanai u cant be always an non-striker....if the over ends with 0 runs in the last ball then u have to strike it.....waiting for ur gooood Arguements....

Be Happy...

madhu_aish1
11-29-2003, 08:09 AM
Facts indeed speak .. There is plenty of information available in the net about decisions being reversed on the basis that courts have been arbitrary, racially biased, and unfair in the way in the orders they have passed..


But we can issue death penalty and think of issuing death penalty on cases like

(1) Mass Murderers
(2) Terrioists
(4) Serial Killers

Do you think they deserve death penalty just because they killed hundreds of people... At the first sight this might be a thought for any normal person. Since we have the ability to think and given the power superior to that of animals. It is our responsiblity to ensure what we decide is on the basis of rationality and not on any other discrimination..
The root of whatever is listed is a topic very much out of this topics boundary.. You and I know what are fundamental causes of terrorism and Mass murderers.. Lets not dig into it. Its another bag of dirts to be dusted.



Before any person is executed in USA, twelve members of a carefully selected jury have to decide -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- that a defendant is guilty. The possibility of an innocent person being executed is extremely small, and continues to decrease with the improvement of forensic science. Till that minute of execution, if proven innocent, he can just walk away.

It is true that death row prisoners have been released, but it is not true that they were innocent

Please keep in mind we are living in a world perpetuated and dictated by money . Things are handled very diffrently than the way they expected by the person implemented. It is the person on the highest authority to ensure things dont turn upside down just because the law enables to do so... But in reality it is totally different ,It is world full of different kinda people

I have highlighted one of ur arguments in ur quote. It basically says that the convict is given time only till his/her execution (probably not guilty) .. but what i am trying to point is ..when he his given time till his execution on the element of doubt in a world of mortals. why not have a system where a mistake could be prevented.


Can you give me statistics that death penalty has reduced murders??

But ,from my side ....More than half the countries in the world have now abolished the death penalty in law or practice after realising death penalty haven't lead the country in the positive direction...And more are joining this league of nations. Only few developed countries are yet to realise the cons of death penalty ... but sooner or later they would certainly fall facing the naked truth..



Then answer me this. consider the scenario of protecting someone else's life. Are police officers (the state) justified in killing attempted murderers to save a victim's life? You know that its prplanned in the department that u can kill on the spot if u see that someones is trying to kill someone right???

This is by law .. A police officier has the right to protect the victim and at extreme situations usage of guns to shield the victim...

The whole point here.. You gotta understand this.. The intention of the police officer is to protect the victim and not to kill the offender..

In advanced lifestyle in future if there is better way to combat an offender from a victim without killing him . Which one do think you would accept... I certainly prefer the least lethal way ..many would do so...

have I answered the question raised and why it is irrelevant example ????



Did the terriosts you flew the plane into WTC, under the influence of alcohol or emotion. The preplanned this stuff. They took the flying education for months and planned for this day?? Do u think they DONT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING?

simple question to answer.. They are not in momentary influence of emotions. They have born and brought in an enviroment of distress and abuse..
Just Imagine this situation ....It would be senseless if I accept the offer to crash the WTC towers and self destruct my life . Because there is no necessity for me to die since i am living a peaceful life.. But it is not the case with the people who actually flew them...They could be fighting for their motherland or other principles..I dont want to comment on this more as it doesnt make sense with the current topic..

I would like to rest my Sword for the Day. More after more from you ..

If you reached till here. It means i have been sucessful in what i wanted to convey.. :D

Madhu

sweetie
11-29-2003, 08:26 AM
ha..... I have got a great team mate in Madhu...... Guess now the so-called opposing team (the team which claims to put us to the sword) will come out in full force..... along with the support of the NADUVAR, SofiaDorathy......

Good job Madhu.... ;) ;)

sofiadorathy
11-29-2003, 12:05 PM
along with the support of the NADUVAR, SofiaDorathy......


hey sweetie Shy-aa summa nenaikkatheeenga...really... gr8 arguements avungalodathu....any way enjoy members......

Be Happy....

sweetie
11-29-2003, 12:16 PM
Itha thaan ungaloda message la irukkira quote la aolli irukken SOFIA-JI..... ;) first time sollum pothu puriyaliya ???

anainar
11-29-2003, 01:04 PM
ANAINAR ... How can u say that a JURY's decision about Murdering.... Oopppss... Executing a Person is well thought out, but a Murderers Decision to kill someone is not ???? I dun understand.... Most of the Murders and Killings are all for a reason which seems to be the right thing to do in the "Eyes of the Murderer" ..... Ofcourse he wud have given it a hell lot of thought coz he obviously knows that he will land in trouble once he commits the crime... still he did it... so now U can see that He ofcourse had a reason and also he did not have the so-called fear you people claim the death sentences will instill in the mind of the public....


The difference is the victim is given a chance to explain his stance. While our judicial system gives a fair chance for the defendant to explain and in cases please insanity and escape death penalty, while murderer does not think it is fit for the victim to know or explain. He just pulls the trigger. There is no denying of this fact between execution by a judicial system in a democractic society and a terrorist. How come you guys over look this point? Does the victims of sniper killer know in advance about his intentions? The mere fact that they think over whether to kill or not does not equate that to a judicial process. The process works within a framework which is known to defendant and hence it is a fair game. It is not a fair game with a terrorist or murderer.



Rather on the contrary, the JURY's decision is simple and solely and only based on what the Prosecution says... it is in no way based on a "well thought out" process... They just listen to the prosecution and refer to the evidence and finally get back to the basics of the law books and pronounce the judgements.... thats it !! Where is it being well thought about.... For instance when a criminals pleads guilty to his crime, what is the need of a prosecution or where is the need for a well thought out process ??

The rule of the game is fairness. The prosecution frames charges based on the events, studies the motives and recounts the events. This is not done in darkness. The defendant is given full access and freedom to deny it or prove otherwise. That is a fair game. Do the victims of murder get this from the well thought out process of the murderer?

Also, the mere fact that the murderer confessing the act, absolves him of the crime? Of the endless pain he has caused to people who respect the laws? Should we put him in jail, feed him three times a day, with the hope that he will repend his guilt and correct himself after 20 years? All just for the morality that we dont have control over our life? This after it is proven that this guy premeditated and executed the murder in cold blood?? This is absolute nonsense. Some one who can plan and execute in cold blood could repend his acts and you guys want to wait for that to happen. It is like height of patience. We dont need that kind of patience.

sweetie
11-29-2003, 01:15 PM
To put it simple, "Obviously" a murderer will not give a fair chance to the victim !!! What do U mean ???? Wat is that U r trying to say ??? If the murderer or criminal thinks that way then there wud be no murders / killings happening in the first place....

The point here is not about who is being given a fair chance or why shud someone be given a fair chance... the point is about why do U want to go on killing people simply based on the fact that they dont deserve to live in the soceity.... What makes u come to such a conclusion when U urself do not know whether U r fit to be in a society or not...... What is the need for this loss of life to continue.....

Dont tell me again that death to a criminal deters other future criminals from commiting the crime in the name of "fear" .....

And if U want to stop the crime being committed by the same person again, then all U have to do it is just lock him up in Jail... Why do U want to go to the extreme of killing him ???? Wat differnce will it make to you or the society or the people who are so steadfast on putting the criminals to death ???

sweetie
11-29-2003, 01:16 PM
Oh yeah.... We human beings never ever have had the patience for good things since time immemorial... So not surprised a lill bit to see that line from u about U not needing any patience for a issue that is tipping on a thin line between life and death.....

anainar
11-29-2003, 01:21 PM
Facts indeed speak .. There is plenty of information available in the net about decisions being reversed on the basis that courts have been arbitrary, racially biased, and unfair in the way in the orders they have passed..


See, that is the strong point of the judicial system we are talking about. You are bringing up the strong point in our favour without even you noticing it. The defendant is given full right to defend his case and prevent any kind of bias. If after all these his act is proven to deserve death penalty, only then it is executed.It is not just one guy sitting in a corner deciding to kill X number of people. So, what is wrong in it?

I dont want to give statistics that death penalty can reduce murders. Those guys need to put to rest. That is it. The side effects if any is welcome, but that is not expected. The argument that many countries have abolished death penalty is essentially because the crime rate is managable for them. how often you see a terrorist strike killing 1000 people in Switzerland? If they face that kind of situation, they will also revise their stances. In the name of freedom struggle or ideological clashes, innocent people are killed and only in such countries feel the pain. Not the ones sitting pretty without any of these troubles. Also, criminals commit heinous crimes in one country and go to those coutries to escape the gallow. Abul Saleem case is a standing example of what a knowledgable criminal can use so called the rights cleverly. He plans and executes bomb blasts in Mumbai and runs to hide in Portugal which does not have death penlaty. He is sitting pretty there as an ordinary criminal for having false documents. Is this what you guys shouting for rights of such criminals want?

These guys dont deserve a second chance to live. Because they are so full of hatred and anger. Otherwise no sane person can commit such heinous crimes. The dont have any right to live.

Shy, we seem to be working in tandem. You are in US time and me in India time. Truly global fight this is :D :D :D

Cheers.

sofiadorathy
11-29-2003, 01:32 PM
Itha thaan ungaloda message la irukkira quote la aolli irukken SOFIA-JI..... first time sollum pothu puriyaliya ???



uh god sorry sweetie juzz now i underwear.....intha mandayila ellame late-aa thaaan yerum....

Be Happy...

anainar
11-29-2003, 01:33 PM
The whole point here.. You gotta understand this.. The intention of the police officer is to protect the victim and not to kill the offender..


There you go Madhu. Again, you are coming to our side. What if we are sure that this guy is going to commit the same crime again, except in a bigger scale? We keep a guy who pre meditated and killed 1000 people in jail. What is the gurantee that he will not escape and commit murder of 10000 people again? If killing a guy to protect a victim is acceptable, this should also be acceptable to you. It is just that the execution does not happen when the guy is actually committing the act. The end result is the same. Tell me how is it different? Dont the morality of taking life which we cannot create hold good there?

The world is for law abiding people to live peacefully. There is no place for some one who decides to kill people, just because they are different ideologically or by race or by what ever means or just for the heck of it.

Cheers.

sweetie
11-29-2003, 01:41 PM
The whole point here.. You gotta understand this.. The intention of the police officer is to protect the victim and not to kill the offender..


There you go Madhu. Again, you are coming to our side. What if we are sure that this guy is going to commit the same crime again, except in a bigger scale? We keep a guy who pre meditated and killed 1000 people in jail. What is the gurantee that he will not escape and commit murder of 10000 people again?

For a guarantee that the guy will not escape and kill 10000 more people, it calls for more secure prison's .... NOT A DEATH SENTENCE TO THAT GUY !!!!!

ANd now... I am sure the Money-wasting-haters among the debaters wud come now and say that they are not prepared to waste money on making the prisons more secure.... uhhh... seems to be a nice cycle eh !!!!

sweetie
11-29-2003, 01:43 PM
The world is for Law abiding people ..... okie.. accepted !!! But killing in the name of law and people who abide by such decision are also acceptable is it ????

When U say that *** There is no place for some one who decides to kill people, just because they are different ideologically or by race or by what ever means or just for the heck of it. ***, then I guess it also implies to people who kill people in the name of justice, which according to them is the ideology or principle or morality or whatever the heck it is...... uhhhh

sweetie
11-29-2003, 01:45 PM
By killing a guy to protect a victim u r in no way giving the surety that that particular victim is gonna live a perfectly secure and safe and hassle free life..... U mean to say that there are no other dangers or no other dangerous criminals being made every minute ????

katteri
11-29-2003, 03:43 PM
Opposite team gaali gaali nu summa vaarthaiyaala sollittu irukaateenga.... vanthu unga vaarthai enna nu thaan ellarukkum kekkara maathiri sollunga... appuram paarkkalaam.... ;) ;)
PULI PATHUNKUNAA ATHU PAYA THAN SO PAYAA READY AAA IRRUKKOM KATHIRUNKAL....

katteri
11-29-2003, 07:49 PM
Sweetie & team
Those who are convicted for death sentence ,not only protects the society.
If a person is convicted to death sentence...he can submit an aplplication to the president of india , the decison whether to proceed with conviction or not based solel on president's discretion.
People like auto shankar and singhs who killed indira were not given pardon...bcos the level of crime is such high
People have posted abt jury ....judges r highly trained and experienced ...B4 giving a deathsentence they look at the inetsity of the crime..suspect /criminal undergoes series of investigation
people shd not forget that criminal failed to understand the value of human life by killing ... r they deserved to be left...
Another intersti'ng post is ;;how can u prove crime rate will decrease if lwas r tight
There are lot of examples
1 compare the lvel of punsihment between middle east and india for the same crime, compare the crime rate...
second though its not related to the topic its a recent one
Until amma said people who dont have rain water conservation project ..will not get electricity and water.....
How many of the people wud have implemented if the laws r not tight....
many more example can be cited for eg pollution and norms....

Shy
11-29-2003, 09:22 PM
Morality and consicence does not seem to play a part here, because most of these murders and dangerous crimes committed (ofcourse some are planned) are all happening even before u cud realise it has happened...

Common sweetie, we arent talking about the killing that happen even without knowing what just happened, right??? I had to point out again even if its a repeat... WTC killings, Coimbatore/Kashmir Bombings, Sniper, Scott peterson.. etc.. These guys do u think they did something and are regretting for that. U know what that sniper guy said on his trial. He says I dont regret for what I did. entha main sentence'ku thaan antha jury has recommended death penalty u know. All first degree/second degree murders some emotionala erunthu erukalaam, like during a fight, man kills his wife etc... we arent issuing a death penalty for them are we???
Only who doesnt care for others lfe and has no remorse only then the state think abt it.. Yaen antha oklahoma bombing guy, when he was in the bed for lethal injection, everyone expected him to say something and also before his death penalty. But he never opened and apologiesed for what he did. he just smiled. Is this guy when kept in life in prison will regret for what he did???


Its is very easy to say that criminals who casued of loss of loved ones need to be put to death in the same way...

Oops... sweetie, u got to read my earlier post, I never said this. We dont want the criminal to suffer the same suffereing the victims did..Appadi paatha.. ethu varaikkum issue aana death penaltyla are the criminals killed by bomb blast.. no lethal injection etc...

Shy

bhim-boy^bhim-boy
11-29-2003, 10:40 PM
My vote goes for capital punishment.......... I presonally don't have any predilection to give capital punishments.... But the world is cruel, and our societal norms are obsolete ... We should treasure human life, but not those lifes whose sole purpose is to create mysery and pain to others.... Somebody was telling earlier, even though there is the presence of capital punishments the crime have increased..... but think abt wht would have happend if there wasn't one! There is no argument against the need of a capital punishment... I think it is just difficult to classify "who" deserves it.... It is easy to say as to follow ur own preachings, my dear friends..... Until its happening to ur neighbours u can all be preaching and stuff, but if it happens to ur very own family or loved ones.....Then the equation changes.... and secondly u don't want anybody else to go thru the same trauma as u did...

I was talking to Dr. Buzz Aldrin the other day about the same question, he is one damn cocky guy I have known in my life....... He says "everybody has to be given one chance of forgiveness," there is nuttin wrong with his argument.... but, how would u know who deserves that one chance............ Does Osama, Verrapan, Dawood etc..... deserve that once chance of forgiveness????? Something is missing??? :ahha:

If we where leaving in an Utopian or Altruistic scoiety it would have been a different ball game, but we are living in a society where human lives has less value compared to some artificial things likes money...... Some how we have to impart the importance of human life, and how should we do that is a still big question...... Thts why it is said "Goar-Kaliyug" :ahha:

gsatnan
11-29-2003, 10:55 PM
welcome to the geetham family (bhim-boy)^2... and we value ur comments and need more comments on different topics

Comenaughty
11-29-2003, 11:14 PM
Somebody was telling earlier, even though there is the presence of capital punishments the crime have increased..... but think abt wht would have happend if there wasn't one


bheem boy,
presence of capital punishment doesnt deter a person from doing a crime..... a person is driven to a crime due to force/need of some means..... remember our verappan or osama or bush :) or who soever does crime to push their message across...these ppl give a damn abt the presence of capital punishment..... i totally disagree crime rate wud have increased much more if death penalty wasnt there..... crime rate is dependent o the society adn not relatd to punishments..... i agree with one thing in this aspect.... if u enforce rules as in middle east..... cut hands if someone caught stealing etc.... and other type of punishments will decrease the crime rate.... but definitely not dath penalty



but, how would u know who deserves that one chance............ Does Osama, Verrapan, Dawood etc..... deserve that once chance of forgiveness????? Something is missing???


its not a qn of whether they deserve to live or not.... coz u and i know only their negative sides.... but do u know hom many jobless youths lives these ppl have lighten up? how many youths are being given up in the society, not cared for..... u and i bother/care for them?

i mite be starting an argument here..... but this is a fact..... india as well as srilanka wants LTTE prabhakaran to be wiped out.....if caught, he wud be given a death penalty..... or thats wat ur argument is..... ask our srilankan friends in this forum how much prabhakarn has done to srilankans tamil and then u will know......

dude, remember, we know only the negative portion of osama, dawood etc..... we dont know the other half.....so dont generally say "these ppl have no rights to live".....

simple qn..... who r u tell that? (take it lightly....this is jus an argument :))

instead of voicing pro-death penalty, c behind the individuals doing the crime and try to rectify the society..... thats better

naughty

sweetie
11-30-2003, 03:44 AM
Kaatteri.... When I said people supporting death penalty and their ideas of the society getting cleaned up by death penalty, that includes the PRESIDENT too !!!! Whenever he gives a go-ahead to a death sentence he becomes part of the "murderers in the name of law".... he dus not stand out just becos he is a President.. he is Human Being in the first place !!!

And may someone tell me how much time was the Oklohama Bomber was given before he was put to death ??? For a side track, does ANYONE really know that Reasons which drove the Oklohama City bomber to that level of bombgin the Murrah building ?????? Was he given enuff time to be in prison and spend the rest of his life there.... Listen.. even if he dus not repent, JUST KEEP HIM IN PRISON !!! WHATS THE HELL BREAKING NEED TO PUT AN END TO HIS LIFE ?????? WHATS THE GODDAMN GOOD / BENEFIT THE SOCIETY GAINED FROM EXECUTING THE OKLOHAMA BOMBER ????? Nothing other than personal revenge for taking the lives of their loved ones.. thats all.... not anymore or less..... JUST PLAIN STUPID SELFISH REVENGE !!!!!

sweetie
11-30-2003, 03:47 AM
BHIM BOY .... How would you know or conclude that the same Osama / Dawood / Veerappan DO NOT DESERVE THE ONE CHANCE ????????

Do U by any chance think about the aetiology of these extreme minded people and their actions ???

Summa summa crime commit panravangala kill pannittu iruntha onnum aaga porathulla ... avalothaan....

All that u r satisfying is ONLY UR PERSONAL GREED AND SELFISH REVENGE DESIRES TO KILL SOMEONE WHO TOOK AWAY THE LIFE OF AN INNOCENT INDIVIDUAL !!! Thats it.... thats where u all stand !!!

anainar
11-30-2003, 04:32 AM
For a guarantee that the guy will not escape and kill 10000 more people, it calls for more secure prison's .... NOT A DEATH SENTENCE TO THAT GUY !!!!!

ANd now... I am sure the Money-wasting-haters among the debaters wud come now and say that they are not prepared to waste money on making the prisons more secure.... uhhh... seems to be a nice cycle eh !!!!

Oh! Come on Sweetie. How secure can you make the prisons be? We had hardcore terrrorists jailed in our highest security prison called Tihar. But the aides of the terrorists choose a soft target called Dr.Rubiya Sayeed and made sure that those dreaded guys walk out royally. The same happened with Masood Azhar who was walked away because of IC 814 hijacking. You cant make every body safe from some one who does not know any laws or play by rules. They will use any thing and everything within their means to achieve their goal. Even if it means killing 1000 people or hijacking 400 passengers. Such guys needs to be punished with capital punishment.

On a side note, it is Dr.Rubiya's sister who is tom toming the rights of terrorists in Kashmir now, but she and her father were the one's behind releasing those dreaded terrorists. At that time Mufti was Home minister and could pull strings to release those terrorists. They gave two hoots to the consequences and killing of innocents after that release. So much for these "Rights of Criminal" activists. Those guys are like chameleons to change colors when needed. Those terrorists should have been executed then and there only, leaving little scope for further activities.

Cheers

anainar
11-30-2003, 04:37 AM
By killing a guy to protect a victim u r in no way giving the surety that that particular victim is gonna live a perfectly secure and safe and hassle free life..... U mean to say that there are no other dangers or no other dangerous criminals being made every minute ????

Come on Sweetie. I thought we are having a grown up discussion. How can anyone gurantee that? We make every efforts to make the life of all law abiding citizens safe. The problem of ultimate safety is not guranteed at all. The probability will come down. I have to come back to Masood Azhar case. He was released and there was fresh impetus in the killings and bombings. How do you explain that? Had we not released him or executed him for his offences, these occurences will not have happened. Can you deny that?

Cheers.

sweetie
11-30-2003, 04:42 AM
ANAINAR ..... If U feel u cannot make the Prisons more secure, THEN THERE IS NO WAY U R GONNA MAKE THE SOCIETY MORE SECURE BY PUTTING THOSE HARDCORE CRIMINALS TO DEATH !!! Coz they are NOT THE ONLY ONES in the society that form the framework of Hardcore criminals !!!

Keep trying....

sweetie
11-30-2003, 04:45 AM
Ofcourse we are having a grown up discussion ANAINAR.... but in a hall where KIDS do come in, then I feel tempted sometimes to talk in a different way !!

And regarding ur query, Had we not relaeased Masood Azhar then its a different story all together... Dun link up all events with the slightest hint of relation to the topic... it makes it more absurd....

Had we not released Mazood Azhar, then U WUD HAVE HAD TO HAVE A DAY OR MOURNING IN INDIA FOR ALL THE PASSENGERS OF IC814 !!!! And U people are not ready to take that in ur stride too !!!!!

sweetie
11-30-2003, 04:47 AM
Changing colours like chameleons when the situation demands is all NOT JUST A SINGLE CAUSE or the NOT THE RESULT OF A SINGLE HUMAN BEINGS SINGLE MINDED WHIMS AND FANTASY !!!! They have a bigger core that digs deep into every goddamn pit in the society... and now I expect someone to come here n say that my discussion is going on a tangent.... well well.... Keep trying to cook up more of ur reasons people... wud love to read them though.... ;) ;)

Shy
11-30-2003, 05:02 AM
And may someone tell me how much time was the Oklohama Bomber was given before he was put to death ??? For a side track, does ANYONE really know that Reasons which drove the Oklohama City bomber to that level of bombgin the Murrah building ?????? Was he given enuff time to be in prison and spend the rest of his life there.... Listen.. even if he dus not repent, JUST KEEP HIM IN PRISON !!! WHATS THE HELL BREAKING NEED TO PUT AN END TO HIS LIFE ?????? WHATS THE GODDAMN GOOD / BENEFIT THE SOCIETY GAINED FROM EXECUTING THE OKLOHAMA BOMBER ????? Nothing other than personal revenge for taking the lives of their loved ones.. thats all.... not anymore or less..... JUST PLAIN STUPID SELFISH REVENGE !!!!!

Sweetie,

U know why there was a prison in the first place? Its not a place where u can enjoy 3 meals a day, cable connection and have all the basic neccessties in life. Its a place where the criminal should feel for his mistakes and when released should become a clean person. Neenga repent panaatha oru mass muderer'a sorru pootu paathuka solreenga.. appadi enna avan pannitaan we should take care of him? Why should the society respect the persons life when he damn care about what he did to the society and to the victims?

Shy

anainar
11-30-2003, 05:13 AM
And regarding ur query, Had we not relaeased Masood Azhar then its a different story all together... Dun link up all events with the slightest hint of relation to the topic... it makes it more absurd....

Had we not released Mazood Azhar, then U WUD HAVE HAD TO HAVE A DAY OR MOURNING IN INDIA FOR ALL THE PASSENGERS OF IC814 !!!! And U people are not ready to take that in ur stride too !!!!!

Nope Sweetie. This is directly related. Had we executed Masood Azhar after a trial instead of keeping him in jail for more than 5 years, hoping he will repent and correct himself, we would not have had a IC 814 hijack. That is precisely the point in favour of death penalty. Those guys who take others life without any gumption does not deserve to live. It would have been a blow to those mindless killers that India will not take things lying down.

Cheers.

anainar
11-30-2003, 05:19 AM
ANAINAR ..... If U feel u cannot make the Prisons more secure, THEN THERE IS NO WAY U R GONNA MAKE THE SOCIETY MORE SECURE BY PUTTING THOSE HARDCORE CRIMINALS TO DEATH !!! Coz they are NOT THE ONLY ONES in the society that form the framework of Hardcore criminals !!!

Keep trying....

Well, death penalty is not going to rid the society of all the crimes. We are not that naive to argue that way Sweetie. There will be crimes and as I mentioned earlier, crime rate is more of a socio economic phenomena. There is no way a society of 3 billion people be made crime free. But death penalty will eliminate those guys who believe it is their right to take another person's life without and gumption or second thoughts, who do it just for the heck of it or for what ever reason they could cook up. And there will be rights activists like you guys out there to feed him and raise him with the hope he will repend.

Cheers.

dinesh
11-30-2003, 05:22 AM
side-track.....
nainar....you still in India?.....எப்பிட இருக்கு சென்னை?
சாப்பாடு எல்லாம் ஒரு புடி புடிக்கிறீ ங்களா....:)

Shy
11-30-2003, 05:28 AM
side-track.....
nainar....you still in India?.....எப்பிட இருக்கு சென்னை?
சாப்பாடு எல்லாம் ஒரு புடி புடிக்கிறீ ங்களா....:)

Me too side track anainar... காரைக்குடி/சென்னை எது உங்க place.. nalla manaka manaka meals kandeepa irukum.. south indian matum ellai.. north indian meals kuuda right ..:)nalla enjoy pannunga..

Shy

anainar
11-30-2003, 05:29 AM
Dinesh,

I am in Pune now. I will not be visiting Chennai at all, as I dont have any one there. I will be going to Nagercoil,( near Kanyakumari ). Saapadu is going good. And having a whale of time with family. :D :D :D

Cheers.

sweetie
11-30-2003, 05:31 AM
Oh Yeah ANAINAR... Had U executed Masood Azhar... U WUD NOT HAVE HAD AN IC814 Hijack.. U WUD'VE HAD THE PARLIAMENT BEING BLOWN UP OR A COUPLA CENTRAL MINISTERS ASSASINATED !!

katteri
11-30-2003, 02:18 PM
Had we not released Mazood Azhar, then U WUD HAVE HAD TO HAVE A DAY OR MOURNING IN INDIA FOR ALL THE PASSENGERS OF IC814 !!!! And U people are not ready to take that in ur stride too !!!!!
We respected thehuman life we saw the consequences..had we executed him as soon as he was captured we wudnt b facing problems here and there....Hopefully he ll be captured one day ...

katteri
11-30-2003, 02:29 PM
Hi
You shd not forget the value of people who lost the life in capturing dreaded terrorist...So do u mean to say death sentence is not a soln...even if we give life imprisonment ..some of his counterpart will capture some people and demand for his release...
eg consider in veerpan case there were lot of policmen who died in capturing him...but govt bowed b4 him when he had kannada actorin his hand....the same case didnt work bcos nagappa value is less compared to rajkumar....
i dont know how many innocents r gng tb killed...
shoot at the sight.......

bhim-boy^bhim-boy
11-30-2003, 09:59 PM
bheem boy,
presence of capital punishment doesnt deter a person from doing a crime..... a person is driven to a crime due to force/need of some means..... remember our verappan or osama or bush :) or who soever does crime to push their message across...these ppl give a damn abt the presence of capital punishment.....

ur rite mate, thats why we want an end to this.... ....... For pushing there message across, is it morally ethical to kill 1000's of innocent people???? :Ksp: People who don't know the value of innocent life... why do u think they should be left alive???????? This people operate even from within the prison.....



i totally disagree crime rate wud have increased much more if death penalty wasnt there..... crime rate is dependent o the society adn not relatd to punishments..... i agree with one thing in this aspect.... if u enforce rules as in middle east..... cut hands if someone caught stealing etc.... and other type of punishments will decrease the crime rate.... but definitely not dath penalty

It doesn't matter if u agree or disagree... Go and read UN fact sheet and the UNSGAC survey conducted in 125 countries... May be that would enlighten u up... :wink:



its not a qn of whether they deserve to live or not.... coz u and i know only their negative sides.... but do u know hom many jobless youths lives these ppl have lighten up? how many youths are being given up in the society, not cared for..... u and i bother/care for them?

What kind of job are you talking abt, executing other people and torturing them to death..... Its better being jobless than killing 1000's of innocent people... They don't even show mercy for a kid or for a old person...... All that matters to them is there goal or agenda...... What a cruel world.. :Ksp:


i mite be starting an argument here..... but this is a fact..... india as well as srilanka wants LTTE prabhakaran to be wiped out.....if caught, he wud be given a death penalty..... or thats wat ur argument is..... ask our srilankan friends in this forum how much prabhakarn has done to srilankans tamil and then u will know......

Dude u already started an argument.... :ee: ......... Same thing goes with any person...... Its in the eyes of beholder..... Take for instant "George Washington" and "Thomas Jefferson" where viewed as traitors by the British, but the same people are revered by american public and now they are called as hero's of the nation..... Thats why I said we should classify, who deserves that capital punishment..... I never said everybody deserves it...

Ok tell me one thing, what was the fault of the people killed in World Trade Center..... Where they involved in any group any race or any kind of extremist activity.... But still they had to face the consequences, why??????????????????????????? U guys are debating for people's......... who are more cruel than an human being could ever get........



dude, remember, we know only the negative portion of osama, dawood etc..... we dont know the other half.....so dont generally say "these ppl have no rights to live".....
Thats a real god idea.....I go and kill 1000 people, and request for life imprisonment..... I get one...I spend 10 yrs in a prison and after that I am released due to my good conduct.... I live ever happily after that... Isn't that a good idea.... You can kill somebody and still get excused.... This will certainly decrease the crime......hahaha :wink:




simple qn..... who r u tell that? (take it lightly....this is jus an argument :))
Dude, we are the public...we make constitution... and yea thats what we call freedom of speech in our world.... :ee:



instead of voicing pro-death penalty, c behind the individuals doing the crime and try to rectify the society..... thats better

naughty

dude.... we are not talking of executing Buddha or Jesus here..... :wink: These individuals are rotten apples...... If you have forgot, let me remind you... "IF you put one rotten apple in a basket of all good ones..... Slowly but surely it will rotten them all." :ee:

bhim-boy^bhim-boy
11-30-2003, 10:16 PM
BHIM BOY .... How would you know or conclude that the same Osama / Dawood / Veerappan DO NOT DESERVE THE ONE CHANCE ????????
And how would u know or conclude they deserve one???? :lol:


Do U by any chance think about the aetiology of these extreme minded people and their actions ???
U mean to say ideology???? :Ksp: Thats never been my speciality.....Do u by chance believe in god???? :ahha:



Summa summa crime commit panravangala kill pannittu iruntha onnum aaga porathulla ... avalothaan....
Summa summa crime pannina-vanna vellila vutta onnuma aage porathulla, verumna crime than aarum... :ee:



All that u r satisfying is ONLY UR PERSONAL GREED AND SELFISH REVENGE DESIRES TO KILL SOMEONE WHO TOOK AWAY THE LIFE OF AN INNOCENT INDIVIDUAL !!! Thats it.... thats where u all stand !!!


Oh yea rite! You wouldn't have said the samething if somebody from ur family or relatives was killed in an incident like World Trade Center..... You have to put urself in there shoes and then realize what they are going thru...... Its good to to save one human life, may it be anybody... but saving a life, whose sole purpose is to create is atrocities will only lead to extinction of human species.......So anything that I could do at my disposal to stop another incident like World Trade center.... Finally don't get blinded by ur belief and ideology.... think twice before u say something, cozzz that one decision u make can have an effect on 1000s of individuals..... and one among that individual may be u urself.... :wink:

Shy
11-30-2003, 11:24 PM
Oh Yeah ANAINAR... Had U executed Masood Azhar... U WUD NOT HAVE HAD AN IC814 Hijack.. U WUD'VE HAD THE PARLIAMENT BEING BLOWN UP OR A COUPLA CENTRAL MINISTERS ASSASINATED !!

appo atleast u accept that guys like this will never repent when kept in prison.. but life in prison vachaalum problem, execute panninaalum problem for the society. So eppadi pata people'ku what they know abt "value of life". Atleast execute pana aarmbicha.. appo sari mateena, gaali nmaba'nu oru bayam vaathu irukum.. chumma prison vachu enna panrathu'nu yosichutu eruntha.. avanooda gang, yaethaavathu panni, exchange pana kaepaanga... Entha mathiri guys ellam shot at site eruntha.. appo enna panuvaanga evanga???

Shy

sweetie
12-01-2003, 12:01 AM
Bhim Boy... thats Aetiology allright .... Go n check up the dictionary if U dun know the word !! Dun make assumptions....

sweetie
12-01-2003, 12:06 AM
And Just for ur kind information (since U decided to dig the pit), I lost my elder brother in the WTC attack... Do I need to say more ???

Do U people by any chance know of a person of US origin, who lost a coupla his family members in the WTC attack, and who started a email campaign calling for PEACE EVEN AFTER THE WTC ATTACK, BECAUSE U DUN HAVE TO NECESSARILY BEHAVE IN A TIT FOR TAT MANNER, AND THAT EMAIL CAMPAIGN GOT SIGNED BY 500,000 People ?????

In case u dun know this, then check up the same GOOGLE (-- on a side track... this is the same place from where some people get GOOD n Geat Ideas regarding some notably harmful things.... Google gives Genuine good info too !! )

So how wud U read the mind of that man who started that campaign and the 500,000 others who signed it ??? How wud u explain this ????

vasan
12-01-2003, 01:13 AM
Oh... so the argument is if you 'eliminate' the killers, there will be no more cruel killings, huh? My point: It has not been proven. Like we keep repeating here, the death-penalty has not induced any sort of fear in the mind of the people. And if you lock them up for good... (give them multiple life sentences.. say 200 years, who cares !!), how could they cause any damage?? Why killing them?

If some one says, these are the psycho/genetic/'some esoteric theory' basis for a person to be a violent criminal, based on your theory, would you then execute him to cause no future death? Don't tell me its not logical. Your theory is that this person could be a danger to the society (he was, previously, thats why he is in prison... but who is any one to predict the future?? ).... if you say that about a criminal of the past, can we also not extend it to criminals who have not yet committed their crimes?? ('Minority Report'.. any one??)

I know what will the be next argument.. We will be wasting money by locking them up .... (you know the money that could have been used to build bridges on Pennai river, to use against deforestration... noon-meals program... and a zillion more things... )

Until we hear some more objections that are self evident and self consistent, for saying NO to death penalty, I think most of the arguments so far have only been recyled, and adequately answered (though the people might not agree to it). Please folks, take a little time to read thoughtfully why allowing death penalty is detrimental to society. After a society is a society only when you have some dignity for human life - life of not just innocent people, but even those of hard criminals.

Vasan

sweetie
12-01-2003, 03:20 AM
Vasan... The last line in ur message is one of the best I have seen of late !!! I dun know whether u r a philosopher or an analyst of the higher order ... but I do believe that u r a human being who takes time to think about the pros and cons of the manner in which even the most hardened criminals are treated !!!!! Hats off to you !!

And as Vasan mentioned, most of the points (almost all of them) from the people who support death penalty have been the same and recycled and rotated and what not ?!?!?!?! Wastage of money on the criminals, induction of fear in the society etc etc blah blah .... none of those make any impact coz none of that has happened !! NO fear is what is existing in the society as of Dec 01, 2003, even after hundreds and thousands of years of all these death penalty n stuff !!!!

All that we can do is hope for the best and thats wat people like me and Vasan and others who say *NO* to death penalty are saying time n again.... When U can have a thought about the dangerous criminals for the future, why cant u give the same thought to them becoming normal in the future ??? Just like the way u predict and say the future is gonna be worse with those criminals still alive, I wud say with all hand thumping and feet stamping that the future is gonna be better with those criminals in prison, lets make it secure prisons, and with their life in hand !! Not kill them as n when a stupid judgement is passed !! Any takers ???

Btw Vasan.... Do U by ne chance need volunteers for the Minority Report styled program ??? Count me in ;) ;) ;)

anainar
12-01-2003, 04:26 AM
Vasan,

I presume you did not read some of my posts. My arguments was not that it will instill fear in other criminals. Some one who does not value other's life should be prepared to others not valuing his life too. We are not talking about some one who bursts into emotion and kills another. We are talking about mass murderers, premeditated killings with ulterior motives. Some one who is that degenrate will rejuvenate himself at the slightest opportunity.

I pulled out the example of Masood Azhar, a noted terrorist held in the highest security prison. I know that he was not senetenced to death. I used that as a case to prove that point that however secure our prisons be, some one with that kind of mindset will always find soft targets to get in the game again. In his case it was IC 814 hijack. Now he is masterminding killing of innocent civilians in Kashmir. How do you, criminal rights activists justify this? Katteri added a unwanted twist by adding shoot at sight and summary execution, which is not what I said. I used the example of Masood to hilight what a hardcore criminal can achieve with the rights you are conferring on him. And we are saying deny those rights for the betterment of the civilians who are getting killed.

We all want the earth to be a heavenly abode. Where human life is respected whether it is that of criminal or a law abiding citizen. But we live in real world full of animosities and treacherous intentions. And if it comes to whose life we should protect, whether that of the law abiding citizen or that of the criminal? Our vote is for the citizen. As simple as that.

Cheers.

sweetie
12-01-2003, 04:35 AM
Vasan,

Some one who does not value other's life should be prepared to others not valuing his life too. We are not talking about some one who bursts into emotion and kills another. We are talking about mass murderers, premeditated killings with ulterior motives. Some one who is that degenrate will rejuvenate himself at the slightest opportunity.

We all want the earth to be a heavenly abode. Where human life is respected whether it is that of criminal or a law abiding citizen. But we live in real world full of animosities and treacherous intentions. And if it comes to whose life we should protect, whether that of the law abiding citizen or that of the criminal? Our vote is for the citizen. As simple as that.

Cheers.

Some one who does not value another persons life is a criminal !!! And how different are You being Anainar, When U dont want to respect the life of the criminal ?????

row row row the boat... keep rowing the same boat... and in the end lets all get dumped in the sea one after the other !!!!

Someone who is that degenerate will rejuvenate at the slightest oppo... accepted.. but u shud also remember that it dus not stop with that.... Its always possible for someone who is sensible to turn into a degenerate human at the beat your ur heart !!!!

So U accept the fact that the world is full of treachorous and animosity ridden people !!! And so where do U think all this come from ??? Where do U think the criminals get such ideas from ??? What do U think is the starting point of all these treachorous and animosity ridden thoughts and actions and criminal activities and intentions ???

And as far as I am concerned, when it boils down to protecting life, It dusnt matter whether u r a law abiding sensible citizen or a hardened, senseless criminal ........ Life is all the same for everyone and its common !!! I wud protect both with the same intensity I wud protect myself !!! Thats it... Dun be so single minded as to the point where U start divorcing the kind of lives you would protect and the kind of lives, U r so happy to see being taken away !!!

vasan
12-01-2003, 06:08 AM
Vasan,

I presume you did not read some of my posts. My arguments was not that it will instill fear in other criminals. Some one who does not value other's life should be prepared to others not valuing his life too. We are not talking about some one who bursts into emotion and kills another. We are talking about mass murderers, premeditated killings with ulterior motives. Some one who is that degenrate will rejuvenate himself at the slightest opportunity.

I pulled out the example of Masood Azhar, a noted terrorist held in the highest security prison. I know that he was not senetenced to death. I used that as a case to prove that point that however secure our prisons be, some one with that kind of mindset will always find soft targets to get in the game again. In his case it was IC 814 hijack. Now he is masterminding killing of innocent civilians in Kashmir. How do you, criminal rights activists justify this? Katteri added a unwanted twist by adding shoot at sight and summary execution, which is not what I said. I used the example of Masood to hilight what a hardcore criminal can achieve with the rights you are conferring on him. And we are saying deny those rights for the betterment of the civilians who are getting killed.

We all want the earth to be a heavenly abode. Where human life is respected whether it is that of criminal or a law abiding citizen. But we live in real world full of animosities and treacherous intentions. And if it comes to whose life we should protect, whether that of the law abiding citizen or that of the criminal? Our vote is for the citizen. As simple as that.

Cheers.

Anainar,

I did read all your posts - indeed being still out in the wild, wild west, and not getting slowed down by the dial-ups, I have read all the posts in this thread. I perfectly understand your position, (which is pretty similar to our Recipes Moderator, and not quite as summary statements like a few others). If none of my posts reflect such a reading being done, please put it to my inability in expression rather than to wilful negligence of your view points (as well as others).

My point is that saying no to Death Penalty does not mean letting the Criminals go scot-free. They are locked up in jail - and if we are real earnest, with multiple life sentences too. What is there to fear from a person rotting in Tihar, Andaman, and Guantanomo Bay? The fear that some criminals can master mind once out, is near non-existant because they aren't going to be out.

Foremost: I am not asking for a chance to rejuvenate the criminals. I am saying I would not like to kill anyone, including a criminal. If a person is bad and proven to be a danger to the society lock him up for good. That is punishment enough. No need to kill. That is also not to be confused with 'rights of the criminal'. I am not asking to have 'facilities, liberty, etc' for a criminal.. (at least not in this post, where my purpose is to argue only against death sentence). I am asking for the 'Right to Live' for everyone, including a criminal, and asking for abolishing state recommened killing in the name of justice. Thats all of it.

I might also add that the fact that one person is executed (say some Kashmir terrorist) does not mean that their colleagues are not going to mastermind or plan something equally dastardly. I admit that even if they are in jail, it won't stop the colleagues from their crimes. All we have in such a situation is mere impasse. However, the difference is that great one: right to life exist even for a criminal and it is guaranteed by the society (even though by virtue of being a criminal he lived or lives with no respect for the society..).

We do live in a world of strange and unexplicable reasons where individuals have shown utter hatred to fellow human beings. Where individuals and groups can feel bitter beyond measure and willing to die in trying to kill others. Don't you think, then, that our efforts as a society should be targetted towards lowering this hatred and more killing - albeit in the name of justice? How is 'more' justice done when you kill the criminal, than when you can lock him up for good and make him literally 'non-participant' in any future activity? Why is bodily destruction more justifiable than the summary exclusion from the society?

I vote for the citizen too - me being one of them. But I vote by not choosing to kill for my sake or for the sake of a justice that could be better served in a more palatable pill.

Vasan

anainar
12-01-2003, 12:22 PM
Some one who does not value another persons life is a criminal !!! And how different are You being Anainar, When U dont want to respect the life of the criminal ?????

row row row the boat... keep rowing the same boat... and in the end lets all get dumped in the sea one after the other !!!!

I explained the difference in one of my earlier posts Sweetie. Taking away a life does not give pleasure and it is not done by the whims and fancies of some one, as in the case of a terrorist. The judicial system is replete with safeguards to avoid the pitfalls you mentioned. I told in reply to Madhu's post also, that the beauty of the system is that, judgements have been reversed because of an iota of doubt. That is the biggest difference between a criminal and our judicial system. The criminal is given every right and benefit of doubt to prove that he has a chance to repend his actions and correct himself.

And we are not rowing the same boat. While a terrorist/murderers boat causes death and destruction to innocents, our boat takes predicted course with clear guidelines known even to the criminal.


So U accept the fact that the world is full of treachorous and animosity ridden people !!! And so where do U think all this come from ??? Where do U think the criminals get such ideas from ??? What do U think is the starting point of all these treachorous and animosity ridden thoughts and actions and criminal activities and intentions ???

Well, that is a root cause of all the problems. Does it originate because of death penalty? No way. Human mind is supposed to be that way. Deep inside every one have their own devils. How well they overcome makes them human beings. There is no way you can get rid of that in the human society. What we need is safe guards to protect those who could overcome their devils from who could not.

Cheers

anainar
12-01-2003, 12:28 PM
And as far as I am concerned, when it boils down to protecting life, It dusnt matter whether u r a law abiding sensible citizen or a hardened, senseless criminal ........ Life is all the same for everyone and its common !!! I wud protect both with the same intensity I wud protect myself !!! Thats it... Dun be so single minded as to the point where U start divorcing the kind of lives you would protect and the kind of lives, U r so happy to see being taken away !!!

This is a real moral high ground Sweetie. Will you protect the life of the criminal, even if he is harming others you are defending? Do you measure the life of those two to be the same? I am not saying life is different for a criminal or victim. They are the same. But if it comes to preventing a victim being killed, I will do the job of sending the criminal to the electric chair.

Cheers.

sweetie
12-01-2003, 12:50 PM
For you, the innocent civilian and the sensible human being, the judicial system is what U turn to !!! For a terrorist or a hardened criminals his own mind and his own personal experience in life is his Judicial system and his judgement origin !!! And all this is becoz of the way he has obviously suffered at some point in life with no one to support him...

And for preventing a victim being killed, its not necessary that u send someone to an electric chair ??? Dun u people think of anything else other than sending someone to the electric chair or to the rope in the gallows ????

Isnt there any other way other than sending someone to the electric chair as means of preventing someone being killed ???

offffff.....

katteri
12-01-2003, 04:03 PM
People who oppose death sentence:
The laws now are comparitively better than in earlier days.If a person is given death sentence imagine the intensity of crime.
The human life value voice is increasing.. as you people are supporting no to death sentence, which were absent few decades ago.
Laws are like the doors for our house unless you have strong door and lock u cant protect urself from criminals...Unless u have tuf laws u cant protect the society....

katteri
12-01-2003, 04:09 PM
Vasan,

Some one who does not value other's life should be prepared to others not valuing his life too. We are not talking about some one who bursts into emotion and kills another. We are talking about mass murderers, premeditated killings with ulterior motives. Some one who is that degenrate will rejuvenate himself at the slightest opportunity.
Cheers.
Mathikiravanai mathikiravan manushan
Mathikiravani mithipavan mirugham#
Mithikiravanai mathipavan deivam...
Nan manushan ..most of us will accept this ....Death sentence is a must to protect the society and welfare of future generations....

Shy
12-01-2003, 07:18 PM
Vasan,

Neenga put the criminal in prison for good, multiple sentencing ellam solreenga...Putting a murderer away for life just isn't good enough. Laws change, so do parole boards, and people forget the past. Those are things that cause life imprisonment to weather away. As long as the murderer lives, there is always a chance, no matter how small, that he will strike again. And there are people who run the criminal justice system who are naive enough to allow him to repeat his crime.
In cable, I used to watch this, Unsolved mysteries. Among the many, I am pointing out one, A criminal raped and strangled 14-year-old girl. Her parents decided to spare the criminal the death penalty on the condition that he be sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Later on, thanks to a change in sentencing laws, ther criminal is eligible for parole every two years! He came out and in 3 of the unsolved mysteries, it was found that he was related to the 3 other killings, after he was released. Hes at large right now.

another one,
A criminal was convicted of the shooting deaths of two boys and the vicious rape-strangulation of their 16-year-old female companion. A jury ruled that the criminal should die in the electric chair, a sentence commuted to life in prison later shutdown the death penalty as then imposed. Then seeing his disicipled manners and he talking that he repent for his mistakes, he was turned loose one fine day.
Within days, a naked body of a woman turned up. She had been beaten, strangled and dumped in a field. Prostitutes began disappearing. One, 22 year old, disapperaed. Her naked, decomposed body later was discovered in a shallow grave in woods behind the college. Another of the missing woman, was last seen kicking and screaming in the cab of the crminal. During the Christmas holidays, another disappeared. Witnesses reported hearing a woman scream that night and seeing two men speeding away. Little more than two months later, a pregnant lady(nenaichu kuuda paka mudiyalai), vanished from a convience store where she worked. The same criminal's car was discovered a block from the store.
2 months later, a fisherman found the young woman's nearly nude body floating in a gravel pit By then, that criminal was the target of a nationwide manhunt. they even showed him on television's "America's Most Wanted'' and arrested in the month of may. Hes in prison right now..

7 of them altogether vasan.. and hes still alive... athula, first 3 avan kill panapavae execute panni eruntha, other 4 wouldnt have died, would they?

Is this what u want?

Shy

sofiadorathy
12-01-2003, 07:23 PM
Mathikiravanai mathikiravan manushan
Mathikiravani mithipavan mirugham#
Mithikiravanai mathipavan deivam...
Nan manushan ..most of us will accept this ....Death sentence is a must to protect the society and welfare of future generations....


Intha line-aa naaan engayo paathurukken but i could not remember it...ithu cinema dialogue-aaa????????????

vasan
12-01-2003, 07:40 PM
Vasan,

7 of them altogether vasan.. and hes still alive... athula, first 3 avan kill panapavae execute panni eruntha, other 4 wouldnt have died, would they?

Is this what u want?

Shy

Shy,

Pretty strong words, Shy.. And completely supported by statistics too. Shocking really! I just hope that it was only a rhetoric - and that you know what I really want. I would not want any one damaged - not even in one tenth of the gruesome acts you have catalogued. Not to even to sworn enemies.

But ... (yeah, the inevitable but !)... won't you then recommend stronger and non-reducible non-parolable life sentences? Why killing? What we would need is an enactment of stricter parole laws and more difficult procedures for criminals to get out. Killing them - while appears to be a easy solution - the problem remains that it does not still solve the issue of abundant criminal behaviour. People getting out of prison for other smaller crimes also often times end up committing bigger ones. Very rarely you hear a very violent crime being the first of a criminals acts. If we want to safeguard then we will have to lockup petty criminals too for good...

See what I am saying? Death penalty does not solve any problem that the multiple sentencing with no-parole can't do. Advocate and argue for stricter parole laws - based on the statistics you showed - I would scream in support of such an idea, till my throats bleed... But death-penalty can't be a right solution.

While we are on the statistics, I might also point out the number of people (at least equalling the number of repeat offenders) who have been found not guilty with later evidences. I am talking about death row people. Who would pity them? Did not commit the crime, yet they suffered the most grevious of all punishments... Can't we at least say, if only... Death is such an ultimate end, that even with complete assurance that the person is actually the criminal (like the choice you voted for), it would still do humanity a whole lot of good, if they were not condemned to die - but commuted to any other equally harsher punishments.

Anything except death. As it is we have to struggle with so many unwanted deaths - people who have suddenly been taken away from us in an act of cruel and mindless violence... We do not want to also have the burden of struggling with planned, justified, death sentences. Death just scares me (to death?!).... And to think that we could condemn a person (even the 'scum' of the society) to death is simply 'unimaginable'...

Please Shy... I hope you will not be offended since I addressed the post to you. I was only expressing my view point, in the hope that you will understand - kinda like speaking your thoughts aloud to a much respected and thoughtful friend, in the hope of understanding and common benefit.


Vasan

Shy
12-01-2003, 08:26 PM
Replying immediately...Aiyo, athu ellam ellai vasan.. no offense at all.. neenga sonathuku appuram thaan antha sentence naan write panni eruka muddathoo'nu thoonithu "Is this what u want?" very sorry abt it.

Antha documentary ellam pakkum poothu, u really feel how much the victim would have suffered u know.. a human being hurting another.. athaan became konjam emotional.

Thappa yaeduthukaatheenga...

will post my points soon :)

Shy

vasan
12-01-2003, 08:41 PM
Replying immediately...Aiyo, athu ellam ellai vasan.. no offense at all.. neenga sonathuku appuram thaan antha sentence naan write panni eruka muddathoo'nu thoonithu "Is this what u want?" very sorry abt it.

Antha documentary ellam pakkum poothu, u really feel how much the victim would have suffered u know.. a human being hurting another.. athaan became konjam emotional.

Thappa yaeduthukaatheenga...

will post my points soon :)

Shy

Hey.. hey.. hey.... Don't say sorry and all that.. I wasn't thinking that you meant it that way at all... By now, I know pretty much when you are serious, and when you are joking, when its an emotional rhetoric said in passion of your arguments... I have never read any unwanted or hurtful line - much less a post - in any thing you have ever written, Shy....

There is nothing here to 'thappa yeduthukka'.... OK? Like I wrote some time back, whenever I read your post in this thread, you almost always convert me to say 'yes'... But only almost.. :) Not completely... not yet at least..

Shy, please don't feel bad. The reason I highlighted that line is because of the passion - emotional attachement you have shown in your writing. I was only acknowleding the seriousness of this whole topic - and how all of us are emotional about it. OK? So, please please come back with more arguments - even if it may not change my view points, at least it will help clarify a lot more of my own questions for me...

Needless to say, you know I always admire your posts :) Always! You are one worthy opponent to argue with Shy, fortunately in this topic only!! ...

:D :D Still smiling, and waiting to hear your reply,

Shy
12-01-2003, 09:37 PM
But ... (yeah, the inevitable but !)... won't you then recommend stronger and non-reducible non-parolable life sentences? Why killing? What we would need is an enactment of stricter parole laws and more difficult procedures for criminals to get out.

athuthaan problem'ae vasan... this is a democratic world... each government vanthu will keep changing the laws and passing new bills. Eppo gay marriage legal'nu solra MA law'va.. next President vanthu can change it..


People getting out of prison for other smaller crimes also often times end up committing bigger ones.

Athu ennala othuka mudiyaathu.. for example steal panuravan.. will keep stealing, athula he might steal car, a bank.. that might vary... but stealing stealing thaan. he will not and wont have the capacity to do mass murder. athae mathiri will not change from stealing to serial killing or raping.


Very rarely you hear a very violent crime being the first of a criminals acts.

What do u say for the serial killing and rapes. From the start the criminal will kill or rape some victim. Also the mass murderers. first plan'ae saema tragedy'a irukum.. they want MASS loss. thats not rare.

Eppotha world'a no common laws.. so a gang planing a bomb blast in india can run and hide in neighbouring countries. we cant even touch them, unless that government cooperates.
If only death penalty is worldwide, enagae mateenaalum gaali thaan avan right..
I believe life is sacred. It cheapens the life of an innocent murder victim to say that society has no right to keep the murderer from ever killing again. In my view, society has not only the right, but the duty to act in self defense to protect the innocent.


While we are on the statistics, I might also point out the number of people (at least equalling the number of repeat offenders) who have been found not guilty with later evidences. I am talking about death row people. Who would pity them? Did not commit the crime, yet they suffered the most grevious of all punishments... Can't we at least say, if only... Death is such an ultimate end, that even with complete assurance that the person is actually the criminal (like the choice you voted for), it would still do humanity a whole lot of good, if they were not condemned to die - but commuted to any other equally harsher punishments.

Life Without Parole does not eliminate the risk that the prisoner will murder a guard, a visitor, or another inmate, and we should not be compelled to take that risk.
current situation'la we cant have hifi security measures to secure prisoners. they might escape. Corruption irukaravaraikkum onnum pana mudiyaathu..

Also as i said earlier, the prisoner will not be eligible for parole until the next legislative session, when the parole laws can be changed.

Considering that a defendant sentenced to "life imprisonment" across the country actually serves on the average less than 8 years in prison, it is a good bet that "life without parole" will not have the meaning intended as years go by.

Even the most "law and order" legislators will begin to consider alternatives when the medical bills for geriatric care of prisoners start rolling in.

Vasan, I accept that no system of justice can produce results which are 100% certain all the time. Mistakes will be made in any system which relies upon human testimony for proof. We should be vigilant to uncover and avoid such mistakes. Our system of justice rightfully demands a higher standard for death penalty cases. Appadiyae yaarum issue panninadalai death penalty. Eppo paarunga Kobe bryant death penalty'a for his rape case, if convicted.. no... 10 years to life in probabtion.. But sniper guy yaeduthukoonga, hes recommended death penalty for his first killing. So eppo irukura laws, judges, jury, prosecutors, governement, they weigh a lot before issuing death penalty.

However, the risk of making a mistake with the extraordinary due process applied in death penalty cases is very small, and there is no credible evidence to show that any innocent persons have been executed at least since the death penalty was reactivated in 1976. The 100+ death row inmates "innocent", "exonerated" and released, as trumpeted by anti-death penalty activists, is a fraud. No direct evidence is there from any goverment that this statement is true, theriyumma


Neenga solratha paatha eppadi iruku theriyumma...

Just because there was some fatal wreck, u want to say that all automobiles are illegal.
we should never ignore the risks of allowing the inmate to kill again.

Shy[/b]

katteri
12-01-2003, 09:51 PM
Mathikiravanai mathikiravan manushan
Mathikiravani mithipavan mirugham#
Mithikiravanai mathipavan deivam...
Nan manushan ..most of us will accept this ....Death sentence is a must to protect the society and welfare of future generations....


Intha line-aa naaan engayo paathurukken but i could not remember it...ithu cinema dialogue-aaa????????????
Theriyaleyee

sweetie
12-02-2003, 03:34 AM
Vasan,

Some one who does not value other's life should be prepared to others not valuing his life too. We are not talking about some one who bursts into emotion and kills another. We are talking about mass murderers, premeditated killings with ulterior motives. Some one who is that degenrate will rejuvenate himself at the slightest opportunity.
Cheers.
Mathikiravanai mathikiravan manushan
Mathikiravani mithipavan mirugham#
Mithikiravanai mathipavan deivam...
Nan manushan ..most of us will accept this ....Death sentence is a must to protect the society and welfare of future generations....

Mathikiravanai mithipavan mirugham nu solriye ...... Dont u realise that people who do such things have infact NMOT BE RESPECTED IN THE SOCIETY ???? And thats why they became a Mirugham ????

Nee manushan nu neeye sollikka koodaathu .... Mathavanga sollanum.....

sofiadorathy
12-02-2003, 09:29 AM
Yes, but only when 100% sure of guilt

intha topic-kku 14 ppls vote panni irukkanga but I could not see any one talking about this?????????????????????????? ?????????? pls inform me immediately if this sentence is wrong...

Be Happy...

katteri
12-02-2003, 10:04 AM
Vasan,

Some one who does not value other's life should be prepared to others not valuing his life too. We are not talking about some one who bursts into emotion and kills another. We are talking about mass murderers, premeditated killings with ulterior motives. Some one who is that degenrate will rejuvenate himself at the slightest opportunity.
Cheers.
Mathikiravanai mathikiravan manushan
Mathikiravani mithipavan mirugham#
Mithikiravanai mathipavan deivam...
Nan manushan ..most of us will accept this ....Death sentence is a must to protect the society and welfare of future generations....

Mathikiravanai mithipavan mirugham nu solriye ...... Dont u realise that people who do such things have infact NMOT BE RESPECTED IN THE SOCIETY ???? And thats why they became a Mirugham ????

Nee manushan nu neeye sollikka koodaathu .... Mathavanga sollanum.....

Mathavankaa solli tthan nan solrenn...
Can u prove that the crime rate will decrease if we go against death sentence? its very difficult to satisfy everyone, the same applies to law.Shy has quoted some good examples for death sentence necessity.
Naama manushana iruukirthala than innum police and militray people r still existing...naame deivama marittta ivenkalukku velia irukkatha ...naama maara mattom....

sweetie
12-02-2003, 11:02 AM
Can U Prove that the CRIME RATE WILL DECREASE *WITH* THE DEATH SENTENCE ???? I dun believe in any quotes or stuff like that ??? Gimme reality...

anainar
12-02-2003, 02:25 PM
Wow! Guys, do you know why I called Shy as my team captain? When she swings, it is like the Green Destiny cutting across.( referring Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon theme of Sword Of Respect that will cut even metal ). Awesome post Shy. I do watch TV but never used to watch such serious stuff. Will watch HBOZN or Friends. But you seem to have watched all gruesome stories.

That reminds me of another serial killer Charles Sobraj, who was imprisoned more than 6 times only to escape and kill more people, especcially women. Parole laws can be amended anytime to suit whims and fancies of any bunch of politicians who can muster enough strength. So, like Shy said, that is not a solution.

Sweetie, answer to Shy's detailed post dude. How do you explain those things she has mentioned? I dont think that is rhetoric. Open up and accept the facts man.

Cheers.

sweetie
12-02-2003, 03:03 PM
ANAINAR.... Irrespective of me opening up and answering somone' posts, I think it wud be rather better if U stop banging the drums for someone else tune' and start making ur own..... ;)

And regarding answering... I am not in any commitment to do that.. I can do that only if I really feel the questions raised are worth answering and only if they are new... ;)

I've already told u about me posting my views here and wat I thought of this topic... and for posts that stick to the same cycle and go round and round, in different words though, I dont think I have the capacity to answer in different words... ;)

Opening up and accept what facts ANAINAR ??? Accept the facts that justified and judicial system backed manslaughter is correct ???? No way Anainar... Try with someone else .... ;)

katteri
12-02-2003, 04:33 PM
Can U Prove that the CRIME RATE WILL DECREASE *WITH* THE DEATH SENTENCE ???? I dun believe in any quotes or stuff like that ??? Gimme reality.....
I cant but certainly say that the crime rate decreases when the laws get tuf.....Thats what i said compare the crime rate in middle east and in india.
Compare the punishment level...thats the reason....

anainar
12-02-2003, 05:35 PM
Sweetie,

A concert does require a drummer( or percussionist ) and he has to play to the tune of the lead singer. Else it will be abaswaram and will be noise instead of music. So, my beating drums is also an integral part of the orchestra for Death Penaly. :wink:

Fortunately or unfortunately we seem to share the same stance in this topic and to avoid recycling, I did not post much.

Manslaughter is something what a murderer does. That is what General Dier did on unsuspecting people in Jalianwalabagh. Or what those tanks did in Tiananman square.

What we are voting for is a different and you cant call it man slaughter. What ever way you call it, it is justified, because it is known to everyone including the criminal on what is in store for him and he is given every opportunity to prove otherwise. That is the big difference between manslaughter and death penalty.

You did not answer to my posts about Abul Saleem character who planted bombs in Mumbai killing innocents people and escaping to a country which has not seen what is manslaughter. Portugal I mean. Why do you think death penalty will eliminate such characters to prevent more bombings? Or Shy's post with details of how a convicted criminal escaped prison or came out on parole only to commit more murders?

Cheers.

Shy
12-02-2003, 06:09 PM
Yes, but only when 100% sure of guilt

intha topic-kku 14 ppls vote panni irukkanga but I could not see any one talking about this?????????????????????????? ?????????? pls inform me immediately if this sentence is wrong...

Be Happy...

Sofia.. naan yaethuku paeseetu irukaen nenaikureenga.. only when proved 100% of guilt.. see my first post in this topic :)

Shy

Shy
12-02-2003, 07:05 PM
Yes, but only when 100% sure of guilt

intha topic-kku 14 ppls vote panni irukkanga but I could not see any one talking about this?????????????????????????? ?????????? pls inform me immediately if this sentence is wrong...

Be Happy...

Sofia.. naan yaethuku paeseetu irukaen nenaikureenga.. only when proved 100% of guilt.. see my first post in this topic :)

BTW, 14 people vote panni irukaaangannu soli erukeenga.. i just see only 10 of them :(

Shy

sofiadorathy
12-02-2003, 08:31 PM
Sofia.. naan yaethuku paeseetu irukaen nenaikureenga.. only when proved 100% of guilt.. see my first post in this topic

Shy


oh my god....sorry sorry sorry.... really sorry I thought ur talking for the option Yes....

I have to read all the posts again....uh ko .... crazy on me....anyway thanks for remembering this for me....

Be Happy...

anainar
12-03-2003, 04:27 AM
Sofia,

I personally felt that 100% option is kind of redundant. None of us arguing for death penalty would want that to be handed over just like that. Only when proved 200% of the crime and no bias in judiciary or lapses or any small iota of doubt. I voted for Yes, but actually I should have voted for 100%.

Cheers

katteri
12-03-2003, 09:46 AM
Sofia,

I personally felt that 100% option is kind of redundant. None of us arguing for death penalty would want that to be handed over just like that. Only when proved 200% of the crime and no bias in judiciary or lapses or any small iota of doubt. I voted for Yes, but actually I should have voted for 100%.

Cheers

THats right .. ushd have removed yes...

sofiadorathy
12-03-2003, 09:53 AM
Its now quite critical situation for me to answer the result now..... I have announced the result date which is on 15th of this month....are u ppls accepting that date or I should move the result date before itself??? please report to me about this which would be helpfull for me.....thank u

Be Happy...

katteri
12-03-2003, 01:12 PM
U can announce the results now itself....as the no of posts have decreased ....

sofiadorathy
12-03-2003, 01:50 PM
U can announce the results now itself....as the no of posts have decreased ....


ok katteri I will announce the result on coming friday night 12.00 am GMT(sat) ok??????? dont worry...

I think all will agree for this date...thank u for the date katteri

Be Happy.......

sweetie
12-03-2003, 01:58 PM
Oh Yeah.... Sofia-ji... The ultimate analysis and solution machine... vaanga vaanga.. neenga enna thaan solla poreenga na paarkka aavalaa irukkom.... ;)

Blame me for judging the solution thats gonne come out from Sofia' mind.. ;) Wud be a wonder if its correct.. ;) ;) ;) ;)

sofiadorathy
12-03-2003, 02:19 PM
Blame me for judging the solution thats gonne come out from Sofia' mind.. Wud be a wonder if its correct..


tension aagatheenga sweetie the results will be on saturday morning only...so dont worry...argue ur messages still than that time... ok vaaa??? dont worry i have selected 5 messages this time also.... still 1 day time is there within that many number of posts can be posted.... another note is that this topic will be locked at 11.00 pm GMT on friday....then will be relased at 12 am GMT... so post some good articles within that....thank u

Be Happy....

sweetie
12-03-2003, 02:26 PM
ennatha good posts bad posts... solla vendiyathu ellam solliyaachu... ithukku melaiyum ungallukku sonnathu puriyalena, naan onnume panna mudiyaathu....

madhu_aish1
12-03-2003, 02:28 PM
still 1 day time is there within that many number of posts can be posted.... another note is that this topic will be locked at 11.00 pm GMT on friday....then will be relased at 12 am GMT... so post some good articles within that....thank u

Be Happy....


i am not happy with the date. earlier it was said that results will be annouced on dec 15th .. If you wanna advance i dont mind. but u gotto give atleast 4 days notice. I need to counter certain arguments.. but i need atleast a day or so for that. but i am in a tight schedule right now. :ee: :ee: :ee:

This is patti mandram.. anything you talk you need to think .. not like passing comments which is instaneous...

Let us know what u gonnaa doo..

Madhu

Shy
12-03-2003, 03:23 PM
ennatha good posts bad posts... solla vendiyathu ellam solliyaachu... ithukku melaiyum ungallukku sonnathu puriyalena, naan onnume panna mudiyaathu....

sweetie.. good till friday time iruku.. mm.. ennum nalla points think pannmi, search pannitu "I WILL BE BACK.. BE BACK..BACK..ACK..CK..K." (vijaykanth mathiri...) ;)

Shy

katteri
12-03-2003, 05:33 PM
One more suggestion to conduct the pattimandram PM....
Have u seen the PM what happens is one person from each team bcoms leader and summarises the whole idea....
Naduvarum summaa vullee pukunthu oru kalakku kallakku kiduvaraa..
Naduvar can start for this PM itself,....
Next PM topic shd have only 2 options
U can also make a new post requesting members to suggest some topics .The highest voted topic will go for PM..

katteri
12-03-2003, 05:36 PM
ennatha good posts bad posts... solla vendiyathu ellam solliyaachu... ithukku melaiyum ungallukku sonnathu puriyalena, naan onnume panna mudiyaathu....
sweetie kavalipada the... eppadiyum nanka win pann**** **

katteri
12-03-2003, 05:38 PM
Pann****** ----stands for both
panniduvom
pannamatom

so lets wait for NATTAMAI THEERPPUUU...

sofiadorathy
12-03-2003, 07:00 PM
One more suggestion to conduct the pattimandram PM....
Have u seen the PM what happens is one person from each team bcoms leader and summarises the whole idea....
Naduvarum summaa vullee pukunthu oru kalakku kallakku kiduvaraa..
Naduvar can start for this PM itself,....
Next PM topic shd have only 2 options
U can also make a new post requesting members to suggest some topics .The highest voted topic will go for PM..


but that point is really unworthable.... inga atha nadatha mudiyaaathu....because pona patti mandrathukku vantha 2-3 person intha patti mandrathukku varale...so we cant put a thalaivar to each topic and he should rule his team.....athu typing patti mandrathula nadai muraikku kondu varathu saathaarana vishayam kidayaathu.....

but neenga sonna 2nd topic will be done sooon before next patti mandram....but naan 3-4 topic hard-aa select panni vachu irunthen....i dunno what to do.... we shall discuss this in a new topic about next patti mandram....

Be Happy...

sofiadorathy
12-03-2003, 07:03 PM
i am not happy with the date. earlier it was said that results will be annouced on dec 15th .. If you wanna advance i dont mind. but u gotto give atleast 4 days notice. I need to counter certain arguments.. but i need atleast a day or so for that. but i am in a tight schedule right now


I m really sorry Madhu

the date has been accepted by some ppls.... but still there is one day time....u can enjoy ur posts by posting here....hope u understand my problem.....

Be Happy....

Shy
12-03-2003, 08:35 PM
Hi Guys,

I think I might conclude for my team here, if there isnt any more argument.

I Conclude that Yes, Death Penalty can be issued if the criminal is proven 100% guilt.

Reasons

Death Penalty prevents furture murders

Society uses punishment to discourage would-be criminals from unlawful action.
Since society has highest interest to prevent murder, it should use the strongest punishment available to deter murder, and that is the death penalty.
If murderers are sentenced to death and executed, potential murderers will think twice before killing for fear of losing their own life.

Because the death penalty is rarely used and it takes quite a long time before an execution is actually carried out. So it might arise the questions for anti-group that this will not stop murderers from killing. But the answer is this :Punishments which are swift and sure are the best deterrent.


Death Penalty for taking gruesomely some innocent victims life

For the most cruel and terrific crimes, death penalty can be recommended.
Criminals deserve the worst punishment under our system of law. Any lesser punishment would undermine the value society places on protecting lives.

Although the victim and the victim's family cannot be restored to the status like before the murder, at least an execution brings closure to the murderer's crime and also closure to the ordeal for the victim's family and ensures that the murderer will create no more victims.

Executing the innocent?

There is no proof that innocent person has actually been executed since increased safeguards and appeals were added to the death penalty system. Imprisoning innocent people is also wrong, but we cannot empty the prisons because of that minimal risk.If improvements are needed in the system of representation, in the use of scientific evidence like DNA testing, then they can be done. But the need for these changes is not a reason to abolish the death penalty.

Also many claims by those who have been released from death row are actually based on legal technicalities. Just because someone's conviction is overturned years later and the prosecutor decides not to retry him, does not mean he is actually innocent.

Hypothetical claims of innocence are just delaying tactics to put off execution as long as possible. Given our thorough system of appeals through numerous state and federal courts, the execution of an innocent individual today is almost impossible. Even the theoretical execution of an innocent person can be justified because the death penalty saves lives by deterring other killings.

whoever arguing against Capital Punishment, Just think for a minute.

Do u believe in capital punishment for a person who abducts a 15 year old girl, continously rapes her and leaves her naked in some remote place where if she cries for help non could hear, to die with a crushed skull because of the beating her with a concrete that weighs 38 pounds, a stick protruding from her private parts; The same person who the week before raped other girl and threatened to kill her if she did not accept; the same person who bit both the victims gruesomely,violently that actually ripped flesh from their body; The same person who had been involved in numerous instances of bad conduct from grammar school known as a bully by all his teachers and that in order to receive the death penalty, the jury must believe beyond a reasonable doubt that yes, the defendant would commit criminal acts of violence that would constitute a continuing threat to society, and no, there are no sufficiently imitaging circumstances about defendant's background, moral culpability for crime, or from facts of the case, to warrant imposition of Life instead of Death.
Shy

sofiadorathy
12-03-2003, 09:12 PM
many claims by those who have been released from death row are actually based on legal technicalities. Just because someone's conviction is overturned years later and the prosecutor decides not to retry him, does not mean he is actually innocent.



Good comment Shy and u have done a good work also....keep it up.... this message is really really smashing every one.....lol

Be Happy....

katteri
12-04-2003, 09:45 AM
http://www.geetham.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=32251#32251
pls see this post:
If laws are tufff will they be dealing with organs?????

sweetie
12-04-2003, 11:41 AM
Oh Yeah.... Why dun u come up with an Idea that people who steal organs shud be put to death !!!!!

Irrespective of whether laws are tuff or lenient, these things will happen.... No matter how strict a law u wud put in place !!!

katteri
12-04-2003, 12:01 PM
Oh Yeah.... Why dun u come up with an Idea that people who steal organs shud be put to death !!!!!

Irrespective of whether laws are tuff or lenient, these things will happen.... No matter how strict a law u wud put in place !!!
I do agree with u .. right from the begining i said we can decrease the crime rate... i havent said we can eradicate the crime..Crime is in each & every part of the world ..but point to be noted is the rate @ which its growing .Unless we have tuff laws crime rate will not decrease and death sentence is one of those....
If u want to remove the crime......N no of issues can b discussed...which is out of context..
Anyway good luck sweetie for the results...

sweetie
12-04-2003, 01:36 PM
Thats wat I am also saying.... the goddamn Death sentence has been in existence for god knows how long... but still the CRIME RATE HAS BEEN ON THE RISE (and U know this too as U have mentioned in ur post) ..

SO WHY KEEP DOING SOMETHING LIKE KILLING SOMEONE WITH THE HOPE THAT THE CRIME RATE WILL DECREASE ????? U KNOW THAT ITS BEEN INCREASING on the contrary....

So why not just keep the individuals locked up for life without killing them and that way atleast the sin of taking away someones life (either in the name of law or justice or watever) can be prevented !!!!!

offfffff............... get a life people !! Dun take away that....

katteri
12-04-2003, 02:10 PM
Thats wat I am also saying.... the goddamn Death sentence has been in existence for god knows how long... but still the CRIME RATE HAS BEEN ON THE RISE (and U know this too as U have mentioned in ur post) ..

SO WHY KEEP DOING SOMETHING LIKE KILLING SOMEONE WITH THE HOPE THAT THE CRIME RATE WILL DECREASE ????? U KNOW THAT ITS BEEN INCREASING on the contrary....

So why not just keep the individuals locked up for life without killing them and that way atleast the sin of taking away someones life (either in the name of law or justice or watever) can be prevented !!!!!

offfffff............... get a life people !! Dun take away that....

If u notice how project managemnt is carried out .. ull not be speaking this ..ultimately we want a crime free world but at the same time its going to take time and effort .With the available resoucres and constraints we need to provide best soln.
For eg if u want to eat a cake u can eat bit by bit and its difficult to eat the whole cake .So our first step is to reduce crime rate and then at last remove crime.........
purinchuthaaa

Shy
12-04-2003, 02:54 PM
Thats wat I am also saying.... the goddamn Death sentence has been in existence for god knows how long... but still the CRIME RATE HAS BEEN ON THE RISE (and U know this too as U have mentioned in ur post) ..

SO WHY KEEP DOING SOMETHING LIKE KILLING SOMEONE WITH THE HOPE THAT THE CRIME RATE WILL DECREASE ????? U KNOW THAT ITS BEEN INCREASING on the contrary....

So why not just keep the individuals locked up for life without killing them and that way atleast the sin of taking away someones life (either in the name of law or justice or watever) can be prevented !!!!!

offfffff............... get a life people !! Dun take away that....

Sweetie.. Read the last para in my concluding post and tell me if someone u love or even know was the victim, will u ask that person to be put in life in prison without parole.. where laws are changing as parliment changes and abovce all, its not just one victim...???? Wont u atleast care on how much would they suffered and this criminal didnt do it for the first and last time.. but as a hobby...with sane mind... answer me that

Shy

sweetie
12-05-2003, 02:15 AM
SHY.... I guess U did not read a post of mine when someone asked the same stupid question like U have !!!

Yes.... For heaven sake, I ALREADY TOLD U THAT I LOST MY ELDER BROTHER IN THE WTC ATTACK.... He is one of the many hundred employees who lost their lives in Cantor Fitz !!

Without reading the posts properly, do not WASTE UR TIME AND MY TIME BY ASKING REPEATED QUESTIONS .....

sweetie
12-05-2003, 02:18 AM
Katteri ...... Dun be so insensitive to the issue of life, that U go on to talk about project management and relate the value of life and an entity called life to something as stupid as project management..... Grow up !!

WHY CANT U PUT THE SAME TIME AND EFFORT TO KEEP THE ACCUSED IN PRISON FOR LIFE ???

AS FAR AS U PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED, THE TIME AND EFFORT U TALK ABOUT IS NOTHING BUT THE TIME AND EFFORT TAKEN TO KILL A CRIMINAL !!! THATS IT !!!.....

For ur information, it dusnt take a long time to kill someone... Go ahead and do it now !!!

GET GOING ... LET ME SEE HOW MUCH TIME AND EFFORT U TAKE TO REDUCE THE CRIME RATE AND ALL THOSE CRAP U TALK ABOUT BY VOTING FOR DEATH SENTENCE !!!

ALL THE VERY BEST TO U !!! Have fun !!!

offfffff..... dun be such sadists !!

Shy
12-05-2003, 02:20 AM
SHY.... I guess U did not read a post of mine when someone asked the same stupid question like U have !!!

Yes.... For heaven sake, I ALREADY TOLD U THAT I LOST MY ELDER BROTHER IN THE WTC ATTACK.... He is one of the many hundred employees who lost their lives in Cantor Fitz !!

Without reading the posts properly, do not WASTE UR TIME AND MY TIME BY ASKING REPEATED QUESTIONS .....

I am sorry to hear about ur brother. But if it were me, I value my brothers life more than anything in this world and will never sleep unless some closure is given.

Anyway I am sorry sweetie.. May be this is the last time I will be wasting ur time by you reading this.

sweetie
12-05-2003, 02:28 AM
Oh Yeah... We in our family do value my brothers life SHY .... but that doesnt mean we go around hunting for the killers and kill more in the process..... thats wat I am saying... once u start taking ur revenge just for the simple reason of being given some kinda closure, it will lead to more harm and criminal activities.....

No Point in going around killing people SHY..... No matter whether U r on the receiving end or on the offensive....... All that we, as mere mortal human beings, can do is to make sure that we Have a better place to live in with Minimal Killings (either criminal activities / justice backed killings) happening.....

katteri
12-05-2003, 10:25 AM
Katteri ...... Dun be so insensitive to the issue of life, that U go on to talk about project management and relate the value of life and an entity called life to something as stupid as project management..... Grow up !!

WHY CANT U PUT THE SAME TIME AND EFFORT TO KEEP THE ACCUSED IN PRISON FOR LIFE ???

AS FAR AS U PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED, THE TIME AND EFFORT U TALK ABOUT IS NOTHING BUT THE TIME AND EFFORT TAKEN TO KILL A CRIMINAL !!! THATS IT !!!.....

For ur information, it dusnt take a long time to kill someone... Go ahead and do it now !!!

GET GOING ... LET ME SEE HOW MUCH TIME AND EFFORT U TAKE TO REDUCE THE CRIME RATE AND ALL THOSE CRAP U TALK ABOUT BY VOTING FOR DEATH SENTENCE !!!

ALL THE VERY BEST TO U !!! Have fun !!!

offfffff..... dun be such sadists !!


...if u call me as SADIST just i have voted for death sentence ....i accept it proudly.. :wink: :b:
As u have pointed abt life valu, even a person convicted of death is offered a chance to live if president approves his amnesty...There r people benefited from this system.But if thepresident gives a red signal does it mean hes taking vengeance.../he doesnt respect the human life ....
Each case is analysed in depth....and then only jury decides ...So its the level of crime dictates whether a suspect deserves death sentence or not...

sofiadorathy
12-05-2003, 11:28 AM
sweeetie-kku ivvalavu ethirpaaa?????? mmm enna seiya?????? ok katteri u said that u will send some topics right send it to me by pm....then lets discuss what are all ur doubts about next patti mandram...ok

Be Happy...

podanga
12-05-2003, 06:01 PM
SHY.... I guess U did not read a post of mine when someone asked the same stupid question like U have !!!

Yes.... For heaven sake, I ALREADY TOLD U THAT I LOST MY ELDER BROTHER IN THE WTC ATTACK.... He is one of the many hundred employees who lost their lives in Cantor Fitz !!

Without reading the posts properly, do not WASTE UR TIME AND MY TIME BY ASKING REPEATED QUESTIONS .....

Sweetie..sorry abt the loss in your family.

but you seriously have issues. you have to be more polite in your discussions and better not mix your emotions or feelings when arguing on a topic here. everyonez got their busy work and really are coming here to kinda have fun!

and yeah.. by the way if you cant stay composed, better f*** off..


once u start taking ur revenge just for the simple reason of being given some kinda closure, it will lead to more harm and criminal activities.....

revenge thats a wrong term to equate for the need for closure. Its my opinion that death sentence is required when an *bad word* committing serious crimes and not insane, thereby proven guilty and I certainly agree with Shy on that. I cannot life my life talking abt human morale in noble terms, when my heart does not seek it. thats all I can say!

podanga!

sofiadorathy
12-05-2003, 06:38 PM
when an *bad word* committing serious crimes and not insane, thereby proven guilty and I certainly agree with Shy on that


Excuse Me Mr.Podanga...please try to use good words in my Topic and also in Geetham Forum....The bad word u have mentioned I have changed it...As ur message has some nice points I havent deleted ur message...but dont use offensive messages again....Hope u understand....

Be Happy...

podanga
12-05-2003, 07:13 PM
Excuse me Sofia,

your point well taken! I dont see a difference in using a****** when referring to that word which will not be edited by you, but still convey the same meaning.

Also, offending members within the group by using harsh words (not bad words) is worse in my opinion, than offending a real jerk who commits crime.

podanga.

vasan
12-05-2003, 07:18 PM
Sofia,

your point well taken. I will henceforth use a****** if I want to refer to that word.

thanks much for keeping up the good spirit!!

Please refrain from using any of these words. Just as much as you are irritated that Sweetie used harsh words, everyone else is also irked to read such words. Not that the people are prudes - but that it takes away the clarity of your arguments. Instead of focussing on your logical, and thoughtful comments we are distracted by angry retorts and hurtful starred words.

We can and we should argue, passinately and forcefully - with out abusing one another and throwing away words. We will learn and discuss more effectively that way. And it will also ease the moderators burden.

Oh, by the way, welcome to Geetham, Podanga.. (Thats your name, my dear sir/madam... not an abusive term !!) :lol: :lol:

Vasan

sofiadorathy
12-05-2003, 07:19 PM
Sofia,

your point well taken. I will henceforth use a****** if I want to refer to that word.

thanks much for keeping up the good spirit!!


thank u poda for ur co-operation and post some good messages.....to this topic because this topic is going to get closed within Few hours....May be ur posts can change the atmosphere of this Patti Mandram (I mean this topic).... lolzzzzz....keep up ur work smarter...

Be Happy...

podanga
12-05-2003, 07:26 PM
Vasan and Sofia, thanks for your welcome messages.

But you guys are too quick in responding. I had edited my posting to be more graceful! :ee: :ee:

podanga

sofiadorathy
12-05-2003, 07:30 PM
I had edited my posting to be more graceful!


thank u for ur work Mr.poda but can u pls stop this encouragement and post some valuable messages for this topic....so that u will become an active member very soooon!!!!!! lolzz dont have this in mind.... en character apdi...lolz

Be Happy...

Shy
12-05-2003, 07:34 PM
Oh welcoming going on ???

Welcome podanga(??? nalla name selection)... Hope you enjoy ur stay here

Coming to the topic. Katteri mathiri neengalum yes thaan poola iruake..

If your vote for Yes when proved 100% guilt or Just plain yes...unga points solunga...

Shy

sofiadorathy
12-05-2003, 07:41 PM
If your vote for Yes when proved 100% guilt or Just plain yes...unga points solunga...


hey atha naan maranthutten pa...thanks for remembering me.... to which team ur voting for??? please read the 1st message of this topic and give ur opinion juzz few hours to go...

Be Happy...

podanga
12-05-2003, 07:47 PM
Thanks Shy. I am for Death penalty if proven 100% guilty.

There have been enough discussions even before I stepped in to this forum.

i am closing with one statement... "one who plants evil will die of evil" tamil la "vinai vedhachavan vinai aruppaan"..

podanga!

vasan
12-05-2003, 08:25 PM
If your vote for Yes when proved 100% guilt or Just plain yes...unga points solunga...


hey atha naan maranthutten pa...thanks for remembering me.... to which team ur voting for??? please read the 1st message of this topic and give ur opinion juzz few hours to go...

Be Happy...

Moderator,

could you please give us a few more hours. I will write a longer post on why I vote for and still argue for saying NO to death penalty. Unfortunately I can do it only after anothe 4 or 5 hours.. :)

Please, Moderator.. Please, please Moderator..
pleasepleasepleaseplease... :pray: :pray: :pray:

sofiadorathy
12-05-2003, 08:51 PM
could you please give us a few more hours. I will write a longer post on why I vote for and still argue for saying NO to death penalty. Unfortunately I can do it only after anothe 4 or 5 hours..


apdingireeengalaa????? but 4-5 hours is tooo much now the time is 9.00 pm GMT still 2 hrs. more to lock this topic...i can give u 1 hour extension....but i cant give more than that sorry....

Be Happy...

sofiadorathy
12-06-2003, 12:15 AM
Hello Geeetham Members....

I m proud to Announce the result now....After I said the result then this topic will be closed for a while....I mean for an hour...then it will be released....then its ur wish whether u participate in this topic again or even u leave this topic as it is.....No Problem....

I first want to thank everybody who took part in this patti mandram and made this topic as 4th Active topic in Geeetham......

As for as the results is concerned I have selected 5 Messages that impressed me in Geetham....

But as for as the problem vasan asked for some extension as far his regards we can give him I think so.....

So My dear Friends the result in Geetham for this topic is at.... 1.00 am GMT....

Thank u

Be Happy.......

sofiadorathy
12-06-2003, 01:19 AM
Hello Geetham Members welcome once more.....

Here's the time up....

I requset every members not to make any Negative Sense on me for this result....

So the 5 Messages that Impressed me are as follows....

These numbers 1) , 3) ..... are not ratings but juzz numbers.....

5) Posted by Shy ;

many claims by those who have been released from death row are actually based on legal technicalities. Just because someone's conviction is overturned years later and the prosecutor decides not to retry him, does not mean he is actually innocent.


4) Posted by Aanainar ;

Abul Saleem character who planted bombs in Mumbai killing innocents people and escaping to a country which has not seen what is manslaughter. Portugal I mean. Why do you think death penalty will eliminate such characters to prevent more bombings?

3) Posted by Vasan;

If some one says, these are the psycho/genetic/'some esoteric theory' basis for a person to be a violent criminal, based on your theory, would you then execute him to cause no future death? Don't tell me its not logical. Your theory is that this person could be a danger to the society (he was, previously, thats why he is in prison... but who is any one to predict the future?? ).... if you say that about a criminal of the past, can we also not extend it to criminals who have not yet committed their crimes??

2) Posted by Sweetie ;

the innocent civilian and the sensible human being, the judicial system is what U turn to !!! For a terrorist or a hardened criminals his own mind and his own personal experience in life is his Judicial system and his judgement origin !!! And all this is becoz of the way he has obviously suffered at some point in life with no one to support him...

And for preventing a victim being killed, its not necessary that u send someone to an electric chair ??? Dun u people think of anything else other than sending someone to the electric chair or to the rope in the gallows ????


1) Posted by Shy ;

A criminal was convicted of the shooting deaths of two boys and the vicious rape-strangulation of their 16-year-old female companion. A jury ruled that the criminal should die in the electric chair, a sentence commuted to life in prison later shutdown the death penalty as then imposed. Then seeing his disicipled manners and he talking that he repent for his mistakes, he was turned loose one fine day.





So Members these where the messages that made me much impressed in this topic....As u all know this result is not also my decision but also my friends too....in this 5 messages I have selected the winner as..........






























I Proudly Applauds the Participation of 1) Katteri
2) Shy
3) Sweetie
4) vasan






























The Winners Are...............






























Yes






























yaarum tension aagaatheeeenga






























sari sari solliduren






























Yes, but only 100% guilt






























No






























intha 3-le winner vanthu........






























the team of






























Yes,but only 100% guilt































congratulations Shy and Aanainar.....






























Please Dont get angry opponents.......






























Thank u for participating....have a nice time.....Meet u in next Patti Mandram......






























Be Happy......

vasan
12-06-2003, 02:01 AM
Congratulations to the Yes (but only if proven guilty one hundred percent) team - led by Shy, Anainar and Katteri !

I do not agree with the results - nor with the stand points posted by other teams :) - but I admire the comments posted by all the teams. This is a highly emotional topic - to some of us even personal - and all of us have argued rather passionately. As a participant myself, I want to offer thanks for your participation and viewpoints.

Thanks also to Moderator Sofia Dorathy for an engaging topic and effective moderation!

Vasan

sofiadorathy
12-06-2003, 02:20 AM
Vasan All is Well That Ends Up Well......

I just started u ppls made a postitive end...nothing in my hand....I m gonna post the details of next patti mandram within 2 days and going to launch next pattimandram after a week....
Till then I need ur co-operation....ppls...

Be Happy....

vasan
12-06-2003, 02:38 AM
Vasan All is Well That Ends Up Well......

I just started u ppls made a postitive end...nothing in my hand....I m gonna post the details of next patti mandram within 2 days and going to launch next pattimandram after a week....
Till then I need ur co-operation....ppls...

Be Happy....

mmm... sof.. its more like...

Love's Labours Lost !

:)

sofiadorathy
12-06-2003, 02:40 AM
mmmm apdiyum vachukkalaaam...enna solli enna aaga poguthu??????? athaaan ellame mudinchu poche????? appuram enna??????

Be Happy....

Shy
12-06-2003, 02:43 AM
Great...see you guys next time.. thanks, moderator for managing it so well..

This was indeed an emotional topic..

Shy

sofiadorathy
12-06-2003, 02:51 AM
Great...see you guys next time.. thanks, moderator for managing it so well..

This was indeed an emotional topic..



enna shy neeenga...Winner team-le irunthuttu santhosha padaama irukeeenga????????

neenga enna enna seiyveeenga-nu nenachu kittu irunthen...mmmhmm onnumey seiyale....ok leave it...

Be Happy....

Shy
12-06-2003, 02:55 AM
Ellai.. saeylamaam thaan.. but anthaan sollli erukaenna emotional topic ethu.. so romba solavaendaamnnu thaan vitutaen...

Next one'la oru valli panniduraen

thanks again :)

Shy

vasan
12-06-2003, 02:57 AM
First time Champion Shy- and team-ukku yellorum serndhu oru big...

O

:)

sofiadorathy
12-06-2003, 03:03 AM
Next one'la oru valli panniduraen


mmm I hope u ppls know how the next patti Mandram is gonna be???? I think so....

If not just a trace over here.....

Members can give me some topics about debate...I m having some 5 topics in that I will select any 2 topics and allow that for a Poll as an announcement.....

which topic leads in the poll will be the next patti mandram topic....Is this step clear???????

This is one of the idea of Katteri.....

so each ppl try to give me 2 good topics so that any 1 can be selected from them...u can post the topics to my pm....

Be Happy...

anainar
12-06-2003, 04:58 AM
Great...see you guys next time.. thanks, moderator for managing it so well..

This was indeed an emotional topic..



enna shy neeenga...Winner team-le irunthuttu santhosha padaama irukeeenga????????

neenga enna enna seiyveeenga-nu nenachu kittu irunthen...mmmhmm onnumey seiyale....ok leave it...

Be Happy....

Sofia,

Even after giving a death sentence, the judges normally break their pen after signing the judgement. The symbolism is that they dont want to be put in a situation to sign another similar judgement. The same way, even though our team won, we are so silent as, it is not victory, but a loss for the human community that we have to have death sentences.

Cheers

anithakumar
12-06-2003, 05:38 AM
Hi

Death penality is 100% needed in this world, if death penality is not there we can find lot of culprits in and around in this world. Couple of yrs ago in india there was guy called Auto shankar he almost raped and killed more than 30 womens snd girls, they gave him death penality, that was the exampel for all other culprits who were following his way. Hope iam right.

anitha.

katteri
12-06-2003, 06:46 AM
Excuse me Sofia,

your point well taken! I dont see a difference in using a****** when referring to that word which will not be edited by you, but still convey the same meaning.

Also, offending members within the group by using harsh words (not bad words) is worse in my opinion, than offending a real jerk who commits crime.

podanga.
WelcomePODANGA TO GEETHAM.. (nalla per its very easy to scoldu also....just kidding :wink: )