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butterfly
01-29-2004, 12:15 AM
This is a sensitive subject...so lets handle it carefully

My question is Y is it widows & women who cannot have children not allowed to participate in any important functions....even if they do...they are not allowed to do anything???...

sabeshan
01-29-2004, 12:23 AM
My question is Y is it widows & women who cannot have children not allowed to participate in any important functions....even if they do...they are not allowed to do anything???...

I think in these days noone does such things any more... i guess this might happen in some remote village but in general such idiotic practices are thankfully out of vogue...

butterfly
01-29-2004, 03:41 AM
I think in these days noone does such things any more... i guess this might happen in some remote village but in general such idiotic practices are thankfully out of vogue...


sab,
Is there a reason behind it?...or are ppl following it blindly?

anainar
01-29-2004, 03:49 AM
Pattu,

I dont think there is any scientific reason behind those acts if you are looking that way. But one psychological reason could be, not letting them know what they miss. For e.g a widow in a function if sees and an intimate couple, chances are very high for her to know what she is missing and feel depressed. Same is true with childless couple. Sight of an adorable child with its parents will make them aware of what they are missing and they might feel depressed more. This is the only reason I could think of.

But people these days are psychologically strong and those things may not be relevant any more though.

Cheers

butterfly
01-29-2004, 03:58 AM
anainar wrote,


Pattu,

I dont think there is any scientific reason behind those acts if you are looking that way. But one psychological reason could be, not letting them know what they miss. For e.g a widow in a function if sees and an intimate couple, chances are very high for her to know what she is missing and feel depressed. Same is true with childless couple. Sight of an adorable child with its parents will make them aware of what they are missing and they might feel depressed more. This is the only reason I could think of.

But people these days are psychologically strong and those things may not be relevant any more though.

Cheers


anainar...
I dont think its them who move away...its ppl's reaction to them...if a childless couple goes for valai kappu they dont let her do anything...same if a widow goes to a wedding she cant go & bless the couple...Y?...do ppl think its bad luck??..or wat is the reason behind it?

anainar
01-29-2004, 04:12 AM
It could the reason behind people trying to avoid them. The last thing you need a function is to have some one feeling depressed.

And that people think it brings bad luck could also be true. Our Indian culture attaches so much importance to marriage and children that any one without those two are considered incomplete in life. Our country has myriad customs and policies. :cry:

Cheers.

sabeshan
01-29-2004, 04:56 AM
But one psychological reason could be, not letting them know what they miss. For e.g a widow in a function if sees and an intimate couple, chances are very high for her to know what she is missing and feel depressed. Same is true with childless couple. Sight of an adorable child with its parents will make them aware of what they are missing and they might feel depressed more. This is the only reason I could think of.

sorry to say this but anainar u seem to have a rosy picture of the world... it is definitely not for such a goody-goody reason that they are not let in functions... it is because they are considered bad luck or messengers of evil... its a good thing that such screwed-up notions are no longer held by ppl....

Honeyarjun
01-29-2004, 06:39 PM
anainar, I completely agree with you regarding the reason behind people trying to avoid functions.
All the customs in our society has definite reason at the back ..(Ofcourse I am very much against following these customs)..but when we think abt it... Its got a reason.. I learnt that after reading 'arthamulla indhu madam'.

I dont believe in religion.caste or God. But I do agree with the scientific reasons behind the old customs of our country..

vasan
01-29-2004, 07:15 PM
I don't believe its for any scientific (including psychological) reasons that such practiceas are done. I think its only our wishful thinking that such reasonings are given. Widows, and childless people are treated poorly - with out consideration or respect. Not long ago many places even asked them to 'sacrifice' themselves on the funeral pyre. Would we say it was also for the benefit of widows? Why I think it is pathetic? Simple: we don't treat widowers the same way as we treat widows. Its plain cruel injustice and no matter what the reason is it ought to be changed.

Personally I would spend a life time educating the people about such poor behaviour rather than find some explanations for why such a 'tradition' was created in the first place. Sorry for the strong words, Arjun and Anainaar... I know you would take it in the right spirit... I had to write it like that, because I totally think that its nearly a crime against women. I agree with Sabeshan completely !


My country might be great in a lot of aspects, my traditions in several areas - but they are far from perfect, and when change is necessary, we should be courageous to accept them and discard bad practices for what they are..

Thanks folks ! Sorry if I was harsh or impolite..

vasan
01-29-2004, 07:21 PM
Butterfly,

You warned us saying it is a sensitive subject. Sorry if I was harsh or crude. My only reason was that this is a cruel practice against women, and like any injustice done to people, it upsets me thoroughly. My grandma is a widow (been for a long time). But she is the one whose feet I touch for anything good... Be it a wedding or any other special occasion.. Some other relatives don't think it is 'auspicious' but I think if the Gods have to be so picky, they can keep their blessings to themselves, and that for me, my Grandma's happiness is more than sufficient...

Sorry for talking personal stuff.. and harsh or writing bad.. :) :) If you think its offensive, please let me know.. I will edit it out, OK? Please..

Thanks !

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 07:33 PM
Butterfly,

You are trying hit a hard nutshell to get an answer. Like you expected you will receive sensitive answers, It will be hard for yourself to come to a conclusion

Because follow this....


Vasan,

What is good?

What is bad?

Are you sure of that?

If so sure, why do you expect a change?

If change is constant, Then what is good and what is bad?

Personally I believe in one thing which is "Change is always a contant".

To me, Good is like 2 people say yes. Bad is like 1 person opposing it. Ofcourse which ever is more gains it value initially not necessarly a fact for all times.

Shy
01-29-2004, 07:44 PM
Butterfly,

A very sensitive topic. Depression, cant handle the situation athunaala thaan childless couple and widows werent allowed'nu solrathai I wont agree. u know why. 170 years back'la irunthu, widows and childless women are considered outcastes.. right outcastes. They beileived once a marriage is done to a women, her life is accomplished. So remarry for widows ellam nenaichukuuda paarka mudiyaatha situations appo ellam. So being an outcaste she is considered a curse and hence not allowed in any celebrations or festivals and even in temples then. But as years passed.. festivals and temples poorathu ellam accepted.. but still they held to auspiscious occasions. They still consider her as a curse and a bad luck. So they wont want her blessings for the married couples.

Childless women is worse. Shes considered a walking dead. A woman is considered complete when shes a mom. This was the thinking for the last 170 years in India. So when shes cant bear one, she is considered bad luck and a life not blessed by god. So antha mathiri women a pregnant lady'o ellai small children'o thoonda vida maatanga.. thoodarathu enna.. cant be in the same room.

Some physco long back for his pleasures ethu mathiri ellam wrote and went.. paavam eppo too many lives are suffering..

I cant even imagine the suffereings of women in the time of sathi.. Indian tradition/culture at times seems to be barbaric for me.. sorry for the harsh words.. but these shouldnt be there at all.

Shy

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 07:54 PM
Indian tradition/culture at times seems to be barbaric for me.. sorry for the harsh words.. but these shouldnt be there at all.


I totally disagree in common grounds.

Shy
01-29-2004, 08:01 PM
The barbaric is for sathi tradition, then widows treatment, child marriages, appuram childess women situation...

Eppo sollungo

Shy

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 08:05 PM
The barbaric is for sathi tradition, then widows treatment, child marriages, appuram childess women situation...

Eppo sollungo

Shy

We nowadays can remove the "child marriages, appuram childess women situation..."

Avan avaukku avan avan vellaiya parkave time seriya irruku.

Widow situations, If i think proper, no men asks to do that, thats to my knowledge atleast in the family level.

vasan
01-29-2004, 08:17 PM
Sri..

What is good and bad? I don't know much, but I know this much : If you treat a human being as though they don't matter, or as outcasts, or something equally similar, that is BAD. Just read Shy's post.. She gives a list of things that are absolutely wrong !!!

Love for my country and my tradition will never make me blind to what is wrong with the things we practice. Why should it do like that? If there is some thing outrightly barbaric, why should we be blind and accepting things? It only stops us from being better people.

For me tradition is the respect and graceful and fair treatment as a society we mete out to all sections of it. I think indian culture is about that. Not about treating people like dirt.

I entirely agree with Shy in her post. I wish I could write as eloquently as she has done!! Thanks a bunch Shy !!

Shy
01-29-2004, 08:38 PM
The barbaric is for sathi tradition, then widows treatment, child marriages, appuram childess women situation...

Eppo sollungo

Shy

We nowadays can remove the "child marriages, appuram childess women situation..."

Avan avaukku avan avan vellaiya parkave time seriya irruku.

Widow situations, If i think proper, no men asks to do that, thats to my knowledge atleast in the family level.

We arent talking abt removing them sri.. just imagine the plight of women for all those 170 years and still in villages u still have child marriages, childless women, widows suffering..

Just imagine, those young girls would have got a good life if only they were not married so early.. appuram also the women. All this was because of some men who wrote it..

Eppo kuuda I see older women with shaved heads and kaavi dress paattis... whats the answer for all this sollunga???

Shy

anainar
01-29-2004, 08:39 PM
Guys,

Looks like my post is misunderstood. I wrote very clearly that with times people change. I, in no way justify these practices and abhor them as much as any one else here. As some one who tries to see different aspects, looked at this problem in a psychological angle. Whether people can handle such depression or not is a different story. There is no good or bad in this. It is downright wrong to deny people their right to be in place they want to be, just for the reason they are widows or childless. My grandmother before she passed away was a widow too. She was withdrawn but we used to get her blessings on every occasion.

And I dont know whether it was written anywhere that people have to be treated differently. It definitely is wrong. The same way, there is a distinct possiblity of people getting depressed also. It may not hold true with our grandmothers or mothers or siblings whose share everything with us. It definitely holds true for some one who we dont share things to feel that way. Again, I insist, that it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Cheers.

Shy
01-29-2004, 09:00 PM
anainar I didnt mean u were wrong..:).. depression'nu antha kaalathula think panni.. nalla yaennathula yaeluthalainu thaan solraen...

If u read some old epics.. u will know how they were treated.. also yes its written.. will find and post.. that one marriage is done..thats it.. shes accomplished her life .. also if the husband dies.. its considered because of her and shes a outcaste'aam..

So yes we can take it in ur sense.. but also we shud think the other side also.. depressionu namba nenaichu koopidaama irukalaam.. but she might feel.. cha namab eppadi irukoomnu thaanae othiki vaikuraanga'nu.. so thats not what was in mind when this tradition was created.. purely.. a nonsense attitue towards women..

U know also i read somewhere.. since in those days marriage if for u know.. only for that.. so is her husband dies.. she cant have that lust anymore'nu kuuda iruku ...

If u think into this deeply u will know anainar.. certain things are utter rubbish in our tradition.. I really regret for women in those years..

Shy

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 09:02 PM
Vasan / Shy / Arumuganainar ,

I usually don't go just easily by others words, but I have a heart to listen and as well as give a reply.

But in this case, I personally don't feel to argue thats why i started with question.

See, Vasan replied something and goes under SHY's umbrella say she is correct.

If someone didn't understand my question properly, I give the purpose why I asked it.

The purpose I asked it is...

Inniki 3 peru correct nu sollidurathala.. correct mari thonalam, aanaa correcta irruka vendiya avasiyam illai.

Ithukellam reasons kandupidkanumna... we have to know the facts, no human being have such life time purana thule sollura mari you should be a superior person than a human being... athu irruka illaynu kuda nammala solla mudiyathu....

Onne onnu mattum than ennala mudinchathu, I can dream a world of my own and in that world there is nothing called bad and good avlothan ennala mudium.

The rest were varthaigal than, Inniki oru munnu peru correct nu sollurathu innum 170 varusam kalichu thappa kuda irrukalam, irrukathu nu sollurengala?

Honeyarjun
01-29-2004, 09:07 PM
Vasan..I think you have taken my post in the wrong sense...
I absolutely agree with ur view points as I clearly stated in my post that I am against those customs.. what I meant was , the scientific things like sanni(cow s*it) tholikarathu in front of the house (its a germ killer) etc in the book arthamulla indu matham..

Coming to how women are treated nowadays... I really dont see such a practice existing anymore, sathi, child marriages, women discrimination etc. I am woman, and I am saying this. If we think ,we still have women discrimination..I will say its b'coz women themselves. They should think that they are not below anyone. They should be bold and come out against the discriminations caused to them in the society. There is a saying .. 'kuniya kuniya than kuttuvanga'. so its all in the hands of the women - to face the society in a bold manner...

sabeshan
01-29-2004, 09:12 PM
enna honeyarjun... andha padathula irukkirathu neengala?? unga nallathukkaaga solren... this is a public forum peach be careful with pictures... pona vaatiye oru female user avangaloda fotove pottu adhai pathi innoru user (photo gallery la paathu) comment pass panni ban aanaaru... so pls be careful

vasan
01-29-2004, 09:13 PM
Sri,

I didn't go under Shy's umbrella... I answered your point. My reply to your post ends there. My addition to my reply was meant for Shy and it meant that I agree with her post. Nothing more or nothing less. Shy was not explaining the questions you have asked (until my post) and I did not ask her to come to my rescue... (though perhaps I should have asked :wink: )

What is good and bad are not that relative. Not just something 3 or 3000 people agreed. There are some good and bad which are universal, and are meant for all times. Treating another human being as equal and with respect should be beyond times. Not just in past but even if in future people think they can treat others like dirt, well they are wrong too..

Not everything is mere words. There are somethings thats done 2000 years before too, and these are still right.. You should know, you are the one who is quoting Thirukural all the time.. :) :) :) :) (I quote only from inpaththu paal :), and Anainaar says its not relevant to current times... :).... we will have to open another post on it too.. :) )

Cheers folks, Super star paattu kettutu thaan next reply.. :)

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 09:14 PM
sabeshan,

Athu ippa mukiyama?

vasan
01-29-2004, 09:21 PM
Vasan..I think you have taken my post in the wrong sense...
I absolutely agree with ur view points as I clearly stated in my post that I am against those customs.. what I meant was , the scientific things like sanni(cow *bad word*) tholikarathu in front of the house (its a germ killer) etc in the book arthamulla indu matham..


Sorry Honeyarjun... I mean, I meant only for the particular aspect of treating women badly... of course there are lot of useful practices, and many have good reasons that we can now say scientifically advantageous too.. You know, lot of paatti-vaithiyam is like that.. :) :) I am not condemning all the practices, but the ones that are obviously bad, should be avoided.. :)

Kovichukaatheenga, OK? Please...

Thankfully a lot of things about the way we treat women have changed. Personally I think we have miles to go though.. :) :)

Vasan

ps: Hey, sorry, if was mistaken in thinking you are guy... :oops: :oops: and called you arjun... (you see what all mistakes I can make.. I am mostly stupid.. !!)... :) ... Mind can easily make judgements even though it knows it can't assume things like this... enna panna.. :( :(

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 09:22 PM
Not everything is mere words. There are somethings thats done 2000 years before too, and these are still right.. You should know, you are the one who is quoting Thirukural all the time..


Smart Move a ... I like this ;).

Correct I quote that for that time... and it is past (by time) and I forget that.

Not necessarly mean I have to quote every where the same, still you do the same thing as fun... thirumba quote pannurena???

*What do you think it is behind it?* ;)

Athan... Thirukural solli eduthu kattalam, kekamatten naa (Indpendence thane)... thana padanum nu vitturathuthan :ee:.

Naan solli mudikalai...wow.... :sm12:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:




ps: Hey, sorry, if was mistaken in thinking you are guy... :oops: :oops: and called you arjun... (you see what all mistakes I can make.. I am mostly stupid.. !!)... :) ... Mind can easily make judgements even though it knows it can't assume things like this... enna panna.. :(


Rombe simple a solluren vasan, communication is created by humans, yes can be made as no and no can be made as yes.

Dr.Arivozhi kelvi pattu irrukengala? :D:

Shy
01-29-2004, 09:23 PM
Honeyarjun,Sri....

We dont have any such hurdles for anyones life anymore... We understood that whoever made up that tradition and culture is an idiot and we ignored it. Innum 170 yearskku appuram caste pathi seereepaanga.. religion paathu kuuda sereekalaam..but religion will stick.. thats different topic...

But my point is.. those traditions are bad for our society.. not now.. for all these years and still some elder women are suffereing because of thatnu solraen.. because they are that generation. Parrunga.. even now.. widows or childess women arent allowed.. we cant erase that for another 50 years so.. because not everyone is literate like us. athai thaan solraen.. If only we dint have those traditions.. those women will be happy in their life ellai.. already they are hurt.. they society is hurting them more.

U guys said.. child marriages..women discrimination ellainu solreenga... but do u know still inmany villages we have this.. yaen there are still some places where women are being married to god--devathaathis and comon for the entire village.. i read in vikatan.. will tell u the vilalge name...

Cities'la ellainga we are educated.. but think abt India as whole for the next 50-100 years and think abt how many women will suffer because for sure for entire india will not be literate by then.....

Honeyarjun... welcome to geetham.. naanum oru poonu thaan.. Happy to have u here.. Hope u enjoy ur stay here :)

Shy

Honeyarjun
01-29-2004, 09:41 PM
shy..I accept that once upon a time some(notice some) of our customs were really bad and was hurting so many people...but not anymore. Its surprising to learn abt devathasi culture followed even today.

Vasan..never mind ..dont feel bad for calling me arjun..In the beginning,I didnt want to reveal that I am a girl..but since I have no connection with the name arjun..I just came out saying that I am a female.

sabeshan..yes..its me in that image. I read a post by arymugam today asking us to post our images so that people can connect us with the posts.. like it will give a feeling of talking.. we use our own pictures in the fitness forums I used to participate..and my face is not very clear in this image..so thought it wouldnt do any harm.. If u people think I should take it out...I will sure do it..... Thanks sabeshan anyways for your advice..

Shy
01-29-2004, 09:52 PM
athaan solraennae honeyarjun... India is not educated like other countries.. we are still developing and still majority of our population is under poverty line.. so appo paathukoonga.. so its all because of those bad traditions..

But I totally accept that there are many good ones that not any other countries can be proud of and can treasure.. but black mark mathiri there are few like this'nus olraen athaan..

Shy

butterfly
01-29-2004, 11:48 PM
Its Nice to see everyones input...I had put it has sensitive subject...coz there cud be widows or childless couples browsing this topic...so considering & respecting them we shud be sensitive in wat we say...& support them
now honeyarjun...sorry for thinking ur male & calling u arjun :)



All the customs in our society has definite reason at the back ..(Ofcourse I am very much against following these customs)..but when we think abt it... Its got a reason.. I learnt that after reading 'arthamulla indhu madam'.


Does it say anything about childless couple or widows in there??...if so can u pls post it here

sri wrote,


Onne onnu mattum than ennala mudinchathu, I can dream a world of my own and in that world there is nothing called bad and good avlothan ennala mudium.


Sri,
If u ask elders about this...they will say periyavangale kelvi ketkakoodathunu...is it coz they themself dunno the reason behind it & following it blindly...we cant teach them or question them...but if each one of us follows that as human its no their fault that they are widows or childless...wud it make a change?

butterfly
01-29-2004, 11:54 PM
vasan wrote,


Sorry for talking personal stuff.. and harsh or writing bad.. If you think its offensive, please let me know.. I will edit it out, OK? Please..


Unmai thane solli irukeengo...I gave the explanation Y i worded it as senstive subject...

shy wrote,


But my point is.. those traditions are bad for our society.. not now.. for all these years and still some elder women are suffereing because of thatnu solraen.. because they are that generation. Parrunga.. even now.. widows or childess women arent allowed.. we cant erase that for another 50 years so.. because not everyone is literate like us. athai thaan solraen.. If only we dint have those traditions.. those women will be happy in their life ellai.. already they are hurt.. they society is hurting them more.


Yaaru society?..isnt it us....shud we also follow wat our elders did?...how do we make them understand with out hurting them?

sri_gan
01-29-2004, 11:55 PM
Sri,
If u ask elders about this...they will say periyavangale kelvi ketkakoodathunu...is it coz they themself dunno the reason behind it & following it blindly...we cant teach them or question them...but if each one of us follows that as human its no their fault that they are widows or childless...wud it make a change?


You know my Quote rite "Change is always a Constant" ...

Nenga nenacha vudane varathu... ippo pathi kammi airukku... the only reason for this is lot of people don't have enough work to do.. ethavathu onnu pannanum nu pannuranga polla irrukku...

vasan
01-30-2004, 12:03 AM
shy wrote,


But my point is.. those traditions are bad for our society.. not now.. for all these years and still some elder women are suffereing because of thatnu solraen.. because they are that generation. Parrunga.. even now.. widows or childess women arent allowed.. we cant erase that for another 50 years so.. because not everyone is literate like us. athai thaan solraen.. If only we dint have those traditions.. those women will be happy in their life ellai.. already they are hurt.. they society is hurting them more.


Yaaru society?..isnt it us....shud we also follow wat our elders did?...how do we make them understand with out hurting them?

We are the society and we ought to follow what our elders did... BUT, not follow them blindly.. Nothing (in past or present or future) is perfect. When we realize what is wrong in the past or present, all of us in society should engage in correcting them. Treating childless women or widows inhumanly is wrong - and we ought to try and change that. And promote the best to continue for the future generations....

How do we make elders understand with out hurting them? If it is only a prejudice in a family, we can think of ways we can be patient in explaining the correct things... But if it is a disease in the society at large, I don't think we have to worry about hurting the elders. The hurt inflicted on victims are far too harsh to worry about such niceties. And any which way possible we should eliminate it. Be it by enforcing laws (against mistreatment of widows or government sponsored programs to help them, abolishing child marriages and such), or by bringing about a social awakening through all possible means (media, education etc). Expose the bad practices, promote better alternatives, embrace the right things....

When the younger generation does such things with out disrespecting elders - but changing the thinking of ones own generation - perhaps we could avoid the hurtful feelings...

Vasan

anitam
01-30-2004, 12:05 AM
I think nowadays nobody is following this.. all are allowed in the functions..

In early days, people think windows doesn't want to come out and join with others, since it reminds them their own married life.. they may feel bad..

But nowadays, no one is like that, girls are educated and can face the world alone.

butterfly
01-30-2004, 12:42 AM
I think nowadays nobody is following this.. all are allowed in the functions..

In early days, people think windows doesn't want to come out and join with others, since it reminds them their own married life.. they may feel bad..

But nowadays, no one is like that, girls are educated and can face the world alone.


Its still followed to this day anitam :(



When the younger generation does such things with out disrespecting elders - but changing the thinking of ones own generation - perhaps we could avoid the hurtful feelings...



Very well said vasan...we may not be able to change our elders or the society...but each person takes it on his own to respect every human its possible

anainar
01-30-2004, 02:25 AM
Pattu,

These are all like chronic disease that has crept in and lived for centuries. Expecting them to be wiped out in one generation is very very difficult. Probably in our children's time, these things may be in a much reduced scale. Because, we being forthright, will not propogate these values to our children and probably by then things will be managable.

Cheers

Comenaughty
01-30-2004, 02:39 AM
i dint know that such taboo's existed till this topic.... me is ignorant and will prefer remaining that way..... so that i dont differentiate that in future..... :ee: .... damn to all these ridiculous, superstittious cutoms.....

Minik
01-30-2004, 05:49 AM
Treating childless women or widows inhumanly is wrong - and we ought to try and change that. And promote the best to continue for the future generations


I agree with vasan. why does women have to suffer for everything if a couple is childless the world blame the women but they don't realize that bringing a child into the world is not only the responsibility of a women but its men too. so why does the world push a man from such functions. I think its all a bullshit from previous years and now the younger generation should not follow those stuff coz they are educated than their forefathers and they should know better. These stuff should be banned.

sabeshan
01-30-2004, 06:14 AM
I think its all a bullshit from previous years

Hi Minik... i can understand the agony in ur mind but let us please maintain the decorum of the forum... any logical and fruitful discussion is possible without using abusive and vulgar words... pls dont take my words as an opposition to ur views... i also vehemently oppose such evil practices...

thanks

r_sowmya_r
01-30-2004, 07:11 AM
Well, I am late to this topic!!

My personal opinion is the feeling of ill-luck should be removed from people who are victims themselves, not only from people who do that to those victims. By victims i am referring to widows and childless women. I have a reason to say this. I got married after my father passed away. Inspite of mine and everybody else's compulsion, my mother was not the first one to bless me. She shut herself up in a room until we have finished up with others. My eyes get filled with tears even now thinking about the incident.

I feel some of the barbaric traditions are still followed. There is one tradition that on the 10'th day(or 11'th day, i am not sure) of husband's death, the woman's thali has to be removed. It will be done usually during midnight. At that time, all the close women relatives whose husband is alive will be asked to tie whole turmeric in their dress. The reason stated for this is when the woman's thali is removed, she is bound to think(vayitherichal pattufy) that all the other women are living happily with their husband whereas i have lost mine. It seems that this will result in somebody else losing their husband also. I don't know whether this tradition exists only in some castes of Hindu religion or all the castes. But it is really bad to do this. Idhukku paeru dhaan vendha punnula vela paaicharadhu.

And honeyarjun, as shy said there are still people who are married to god in some villages. I also read about it in vikatan. Their life is really pathetic. These people who are married to god can be used by any man in the village for his happiness. She can live with anybody but she can't get married to any human being. The name for these kind of people start with M, but i don't remember the exact name.

Anyway let us hope that all this will change in the years to come!!

sabeshan
01-30-2004, 07:17 AM
The name for these kind of people start with M

No it doesnt start with M but rather starts with D, Devadasi if it is what u are referring to... in fact the person who was responsible for removal of this system has her name starting with M, Dr. Muthulakshmi, one of the pioneers of women's rights even as early as the early 1900s....

Honeyarjun
01-30-2004, 02:01 PM
sowmya..is it mathhamma's?? yes...me too vaguley remember reading abt it..

I am really sorry to hear abt the way u were hurt in ur marriage by one of this custom we are speaking here.

I think I am ignorant to these customs as I have never seen one like that in real life.. I always read abt it..so I always thought these things are only from the past and not existing anymore.. Really feeling bad when I think abt the reality that even now..in some places we still have these in pratice...

anainar
01-30-2004, 02:11 PM
Minik,

No law can change society. It has to be corrected by the society itself. Believe me human society has an inbuilt self correcting mechanism. It takes time, but it certainly will correct itself. Take the examples of Comenaught and HoneyArjun. They are ignorant or atleast aware of the pain it causes. Am sure there will be more and more such people coming up, making the next generation completely ignorant of these painful things.

Cheers

sri_gan
01-30-2004, 02:16 PM
Minik,

No law can change society. It has to be corrected by the society itself. Believe me human society has an inbuilt self correcting mechanism. It takes time, but it certainly will correct itself. Take the examples of Comenaught and HoneyArjun. They are ignorant or atleast aware of the pain it causes. Am sure there will be more and more such people coming up, making the next generation completely ignorant of these painful things.

Cheers

Correct, Ingorance a enga use pannanumo anga use pannanum.

katteri
01-30-2004, 03:43 PM
Well joining the topic late:
let me post my views:

There is one reason for every traiditon we adopt...some we follow it in a blindfold...some we have misinterpreted....'' The old history during kings ....early 10 th century till(14 th) i cud nt find any such evidence...
Consider Rani lakshi bhai she didnt go sathi after beeing widow , but she fought bravely...

What i conclude is some people who in the name of god tried to take advantage of situation & misinterpretd the tradition ''
Even in my house i will call my grandma to host the fn first but she refuses & upon my insist she accepts...
I told her its her duty to do all the rituals as u r the eldest person in the family. Till now no one objects bcos she s kind to all.....
If u r kind to all people will accept u...'' so its in between 14 th and 17 th centrury some oppurtuntist changed the customs in name of god,..

Do not blame the tradition it has some reason behind it but where it wen t wrong needs to b explored,,,,,,

sri_gan
01-30-2004, 03:47 PM
Do not blame the tradition it has some reason behind it but where it wen t wrong needs to b explored,,,,,,


Ithai than naanum solluren.

Shy
01-30-2004, 05:35 PM
Well joining the topic late:
let me post my views:

There is one reason for every traiditon we adopt...some we follow it in a blindfold...some we have misinterpreted....'' The old history during kings ....early 10 th century till(14 th) i cud nt find any such evidence...
Consider Rani lakshi bhai she didnt go sathi after beeing widow , but she fought bravely...

What i conclude is some people who in the name of god tried to take advantage of situation & misinterpretd the tradition ''
Even in my house i will call my grandma to host the fn first but she refuses & upon my insist she accepts...
I told her its her duty to do all the rituals as u r the eldest person in the family. Till now no one objects bcos she s kind to all.....
If u r kind to all people will accept u...'' so its in between 14 th and 17 th centrury some oppurtuntist changed the customs in name of god,..

Do not blame the tradition it has some reason behind it but where it wen t wrong needs to b explored,,,,,,

Katteri,

Nama ellam literates and we understand whats right and wrong. Atleast when ahndling others feeling right? But oru tradition, lets take childless couples. Tradition ethu thaanae... are u saying there would have been something else and it changed like this.

Whatever it is.. my point is.. there shouldnt be any seperate tradition for such people Why seperate these people.. avanga enna thappu panninaaga.. Yaethoo nalathukku panni irupaanga solreenga.. for whose good.. for the victims or for others.. victims chance'ae ellai.. because thanniyaa vachu paartha thaan they will feel even more hurt..sowmya sonathai padichu i was in tears.. I feel very sad ... but ennum evalavu educated families appadi saeiraanga theriyumma.. antha womanooda feelings yaar purinchukara.. I hate this stupid barbaric.. yes barbaric tradition... yaenna nallathu irunthu irukamudiyum sollunga.. by having this tradition???? katteri ennoda first post padinga.. u will know hoe thery were treated.. it isnt changed katteri.. these vitims named as outcastesnu irukarthu even in epics and stuff..

Rani lakshi bhai very funny.. she was born in a raja family int he first palce.. ava matum ellai apapdi partha 1000 widows in very great posts irunthu irukaanga.. all in big position...appavum paarunga..avnaga ellam thapichutaanga with money :)

Eppo sollunga.. tradition mathee irukoo ellaiyoo athu mukiyam ellai.. entha mathiri tradition thaevaiyaa??? already nonthu poi irukaravangalukku this is like "vaentha woundla vaell paacharathu"

Shy

katteri
01-30-2004, 05:53 PM
Shy , good arguments:

I am not supporting the so called humiliating tradition....''
But shy if u look at wht tradition says for each activities...there is a reason...i have explained in my previos post..
I cudnt remember which king ... but that kings mother was widow. King b4 goes to war he ll get her blessing and request her to give the sword to him...
So some one has played some mischief.....'' KURTTU NAMBIKAI I MATTUM THAVIRPOOM ''

all of us r brought up with a rich tradition.. atha i kuthham sollatheengha .I do accept there r some faults in it.. As we go thru variou phases these will disapper..
''
ROJA ENDRAL MULLLUM IRUKKUM...MULLAI NEEKI VITTU ROJA VAI MATTUM RASIYUNGHAL''

Minik
01-30-2004, 08:06 PM
I think its all a *bad word* from previous years

Hi Minik... i can understand the agony in ur mind but let us please maintain the decorum of the forum... any logical and fruitful discussion is possible without using abusive and vulgar words... pls dont take my words as an opposition to ur views... i also vehemently oppose such evil practices...

thanks

sorry sabeashan, I did'nt intend to say that but became over emotional I guess

butterfly
02-02-2004, 11:10 PM
katteri wrote,


all of us r brought up with a rich tradition.. atha i kuthham sollatheengha .I do accept there r some faults in it.. As we go thru variou phases these will disapper..

''
How can it disappear?...until we question our tradition...& find the reason behind it...its not going to go away on its own wud it?

anainar
02-03-2004, 03:18 AM
Pattu,

My mom never questioned any of the traditions but I do. The crux is that as children develop the habit of having their own thoughts, will start questioning and choosing what they feel appropriate based on their environment. Where we want it or not these issues will disappear 2-3 generation down the line. Because the groundwork is already done and this is an irreversible process.

Cheers

Minik
02-04-2004, 04:46 PM
Minik,

No law can change society. It has to be corrected by the society itself. Believe me human society has an inbuilt self correcting mechanism. It takes time, but it certainly will correct itself. Take the examples of Comenaught and HoneyArjun. They are ignorant or atleast aware of the pain it causes. Am sure there will be more and more such people coming up, making the next generation completely ignorant of these painful things.

Cheers


I hope so anianar that the world will change from these situatons

Shy
02-04-2004, 05:05 PM
Shy , good arguments:

I am not supporting the so called humiliating tradition....''
But shy if u look at wht tradition says for each activities...there is a reason...i have explained in my previos post..
I cudnt remember which king ... but that kings mother was widow. King b4 goes to war he ll get her blessing and request her to give the sword to him...
So some one has played some mischief.....'' KURTTU NAMBIKAI I MATTUM THAVIRPOOM ''

all of us r brought up with a rich tradition.. atha i kuthham sollatheengha .I do accept there r some faults in it.. As we go thru variou phases these will disapper..
''
ROJA ENDRAL MULLLUM IRUKKUM...MULLAI NEEKI VITTU ROJA VAI MATTUM RASIYUNGHAL''

Katteri, I totally accept that as a whole I tradition is best of all. But we do have some msiatkes within us.

I am not saying as a whole I tradition is useless and shud be thrown away. These humilitating tradition, we can think over and just throw them before more people are getting hurt by this right?

Entha mathiri humiliating tradition'la roja ithalgal irukkumnu enakku theriyavillai.. athu oru mullu chaedi mathiri thaan irukku. appo athai vaetuvathil enna thappu?

Shy

Shri
02-09-2004, 12:18 PM
Hi All! My first post here!
This kind of situation is going on in our country for centuries. We are just starting to question some of these sentiments in our culture. This is because more and more of us are being educated. Education can only solve this problem. We can also use media to solve it...which is far reaching han education. But unfortunately it is this media that is causing these sentiments to embed deeply in our culture. Almost in all movies when they show a widow...she will be wearing white saree wnd will not have any flowers and she will be living just for the sake of her children. This kind of stuff should be stopped. Women can have a life of their own. Showing women a living for her husband and her children should be stopped.
Cheers,
Shri

Shy
02-09-2004, 04:14 PM
Hi Shri.. Welcome to geetham !.. Hope u enjoy ur stay here :)

Nice thoughts.. But Educated people ellam mareena mathiri theriyalae. Education shud have identified the pros and cons of these traditions, but instead even those people follow this as mooda nambikkai.

Educated people do laugh at movies when they show widowed women not alowed in auspicious occasions.. but real life'al how many educated people athai panaama irukaanga sollunga.. nambalai vidunga... We are current generation.. what abt the already exiting people ??

Shy

vasan
02-09-2004, 07:22 PM
Hi Shri.. Welcome to geetham !.. Hope u enjoy ur stay here :)

Nice thoughts.. But Educated people ellam mareena mathiri theriyalae. Education shud have identified the pros and cons of these traditions, but instead even those people follow this as mooda nambikkai.

Educated people do laugh at movies when they show widowed women not alowed in auspicious occasions.. but real life'al how many educated people athai panaama irukaanga sollunga.. nambalai vidunga... We are current generation.. what abt the already exiting people ??

Shy

Shy,

You have nailed the problem right on its head..

The problem with our education is that instead of it training us to think, it only serves to propagate. We need to inculcate justified pride and rational affection for things we have inherited. But that should never be at the cost of logic, reason and human values. Funny part is, to me, logic, reason and human values are the core of our heritage. Some where along the line, superstitions took over and 'anything old is important and unquestionable' mind set has developed.

People have spoken against cruel practices - and history shows no evidence that such are the traditions of ages. And yet, we are still bound by these practices intiated a mere few hundred years back, and are not even willing to question them. Where is the value of education, then? Just what did we learn at all??

Some times exasperation is all that I feel.. Its so easy to be a pessimist.

Vasan

anainar
02-09-2004, 07:39 PM
Vasan & Shy,

I am not that pessimistic. Education does give you a chance to think rationally, but whether to think rationally or not is an individual's choice. I believe many people these days think rationally. Education has played a key role in making this happen.

Expecting a 300-400 year old custom to disappear in 30 years is like expecting a Maruti 800 to race at 250 kmph. These social things take their own time and momentum. But the roots of change are already visible. Women are much more empowered than they were 50 years back. These customs will make their way out soon. I have no doubt about that.

Cheers

venky1974
02-09-2004, 07:52 PM
I would like to add my 2 cents to this topic.

It is totally wrong that such things take place in today's world. I from my heart feel its totally wrong on the part of people who are for such things.

But practically speaking how many of us in real life have done something about it? ( I do understand that we are talking here about how to solve this issue)

When one gets married do you think that ppl will allow you to seek blessing first from a widow or do you think that the ppl organising valakapu will agree you to wear bangles from a childless couple. It has so happened that ppl who are widow or child less refrain themselves from such things or they end up hearing bad things about themselves.

Educated folks like us have to stand against such things its not going to happen in this generation, like some of you have mentioned but my appeal to this generation is that when your next generation will be going through some rituals it is up to us to set the scores right.

Pls forgive me if I have said something that may hurt others, If so I appologise and I will edit the post after you reply.

Venky

Shy
02-09-2004, 08:38 PM
Child marraiges ellainu solitu irunthavanga just have a look here... :)
http://www.vikatan.com/aval/2004/feb/13022004/aval0408.shtml

Venky romba correct'a sonnenga...prefect facts :) educated people enna pananumoo they arent doing that..thats the main problem


Expecting a 300-400 year old custom to disappear in 30 years is like expecting a Maruti 800 to race at 250 kmph. These social things take their own time and momentum. But the roots of change are already visible. Women are much more empowered than they were 50 years back. These customs will make their way out soon. I have no doubt about that.

Anainar... women thaan again kashtapattu shud let go these handcuffs and come up in life'nu solreengala? Society enna panuthu appo? As venky asked.. will any educated people allow widows in their asupicous occasions or will allow a childless woman to bless a pregnant lady???

Shy

anainar
02-09-2004, 08:48 PM
Shy,

These are isolated incidents. I never said these things are not in practice. It is hard to expect these customs to disappear. Unfortunately there is no magic wand which can achieve this in seconds. They take their own time. These are chronic diseases. For a head ache you take Tylenol and it goes in 6 hours. But for cancer or asthma, you need continuous medication for years before it goes away. These practices are like that. It will take years before this can disappear completely. They will go away.

I am sure none of us will have any issues with childless couple or widow blessing us, if they are our mom/aunt/sisters who we would seek blessings normally. This is the starting point. From here it will go further.

I have no doubt in my mind that the coming genration is going to be much more progressive in their thoughts whether we want them to be or not. It is a irreversible social process that has set in already. Kids 20 years back will do what ever mom says and be quiet. Now they ask all kinds of questions and very very inquisitive. They are also fiercely independent and guard that. So, changes are in the air for sure. It will soon become a whirlwind wiping away all these debris of old customs with it.

Cheers.

venky1974
02-09-2004, 08:55 PM
I have a question though?

All said and done and we will try our best in improving the situation in years to come, but when you are about to take part in a ritual where you are asking a widow or a childless women to bless the couple/would be mother and some one comes to your ear and says...

"What you are doing is not accepted as per the ritual and you will bear the consequences if something goes wrong"..what would one do when it comes upon to us.

My main question here is practically thinking and speaking, we are all against it when it comes to talking , but how many of us will be willing to do it ourselves?

Please do not mind this question? just curiosity.

Venky

vasan
02-09-2004, 08:59 PM
I have a question though?

All said and done and we will try our best in improving the situation in years to come, but when you are about to take part in a ritual where you are asking a widow or a childless women to bless the couple/would be mother and some one comes to your ear and says...

"What you are doing is not accepted as per the ritual and you will bear the consequences if something goes wrong"..what would one do when it comes upon to us.

My main question here is practically thinking and speaking, we are all against it when it comes to talking , but how many of us will be willing to do it ourselves?

Please do not mind this question? just curiosity.

Venky

I would be. I have already done it. Not for me, but when my bro got married. People think I am nuts - but mom and dad tolerates our strong willed words. My bro does not care either way. But I insisted, and well, now its the most common thing at home. My grandmother, long been single, is always the one to bless us. I would do it also, when my time comes to wed my beautiful one from Mars.. (I wonder what sort of customs and traditions do they have it over there.. :think: :think: :D :D )


Traditions, when they don't agree with what is right, can take a long jump for all I care. To me people are much more important than traditions. Any day. Any time. Every time.

venky1974
02-09-2004, 09:07 PM
Vasan,

I am really proud of the fact that we have members in Geetham who stand to their words. Hats off to you. :sm03: :clap: :sm03: :clap: :sm03: :clap: :sm03: :clap:

I hope more people follow suit. Some are brave like your bro and some are not and we need to help them.

Venky

Shy
02-09-2004, 09:11 PM
Side track.. someone asked me this :).. asking u now venky..
athu eppadi kai thattitae keela vilureenga ;)

Shy

venky1974
02-09-2004, 09:17 PM
Side Track:

I saw that in one of the post some one asking you that. :D :D
Now that you ask , you have to look close...

First I bow down and then I get up to clap , then I bow down and then get up and clap and on and on in a loop... :D :D

Does this clear your doubt. :think: :think:

Venky

madhu_aish1
02-09-2004, 09:27 PM
Side Track:

First I bow down and then I get up to clap , then I bow down and then get up and clap and on and on in a loop... :D :D

Venky

avangalae erkanavae matikitu mulikiraanga. ippo neenga mattikiteenga :lol: :lol: :lol:

Unga logic odhaikuthae ... :D Clappping is continuous .. but bowing down in intermediate . So rendum mix panna mudiyathu ... :ee: :ee:

PS: Sorry pattams for the sidetrack in a sensitive subject :?

anainar
02-09-2004, 09:31 PM
Side Track..

That is like doing excercise. You do a push up and when you are up clap your hands quickly before landing in the ground. It is a kind of excercise that Slyvester Stallone does in Rocky.

Pattaams, sorry for the side track, கை நம நமன்னு அரிசுடுச்ச ு!!

Cheers

venky1974
02-09-2004, 09:37 PM
Side Track



That is like doing excercise. You do a push up and when you are up clap your hands quickly before landing in the ground. It is a kind of excercise that Slyvester Stallone does in Rocky.


Madhu,

Anainar 's logic is good and if it still does not work then lets have it this way..

I bow down and shy claps and the loop continues.. shy..ongaluku idhu ok va..

now what you say madhu????

Pattams, sorry for the side track..

Venky

Shy
02-09-2004, 10:47 PM
venky super poongo :yes:

eppo enna solreenga madhu??? :)

Shy

sri_gan
02-09-2004, 10:50 PM
mmmm.. main track vida side track balama irrukku... mic maami tension party nu theriyumla... amma solliputten.

Shy
02-09-2004, 11:09 PM
Solravar yaethoo "Take it policy" party'nu nenaippu.. ;)

Shy

sri_gan
02-09-2004, 11:28 PM
Solravar yaethoo "Take it policy" party'nu nenaippu.. ;)

Shy

vekka paduravanga ellam pesa arambichutanga... :P

butterfly
02-09-2004, 11:35 PM
anibavam pesuthu :)...

Now coming back to the main topic

vasan,
yes we are proud of U & so many ppl who take a stand ....I know for my sister's wedding...Me & my sister made sure that my mom's elder sis who is a widow came & blessed my sis for her wedding...there was older ppl sitting there murmering...but my parents was supportive of our decision :)...& we had support of our cousins & neices :)...so i say if each person takes that stand & prove that there is no harm in them giving us their blessings...it wud prompt them to come forward too

Shy
02-09-2004, 11:43 PM
Solravar yaethoo "Take it policy" party'nu nenaippu.. ;)

Shy

vekka paduravanga ellam pesa arambichutanga... :P

Ada da Ethu kuuda theriyaatha.. ok solraen kaetukoo kai chupara kulanthai

Vekkam != Paesa mudiyaathavanga..

They can and will talk whenever required.. ;)

Shy

Shy
02-09-2004, 11:47 PM
I would be. I have already done it. Not for me, but when my bro got married. People think I am nuts - but mom and dad tolerates our strong willed words. My bro does not care either way. But I insisted, and well, now its the most common thing at home. My grandmother, long been single, is always the one to bless us. I would do it also, when my time comes to wed my beautiful one from Mars.. (I wonder what sort of customs and traditions do they have it over there.. :think: :think: :D :D )


Traditions, when they don't agree with what is right, can take a long jump for all I care. To me people are much more important than traditions. Any day. Any time. Every time.

Vasan :b: super poonga neenga.. Really appreciate you for that. Yes we have to care abt people than traditions. But eppadi irunthaalum.. some people right.. .. paeriyaa USla vanthuta epapdiyaa... ellam change pannida mudiyumma.. ellam kalli kaalamnu nambalaiyum saethu thituvaanga... Not just US.. even if are educated.. padichuta.. can u crush all these traditions.. appadinu kaepaanga.. All these people got to change one day :(

Shy

butterfly
02-10-2004, 12:05 AM
But eppadi irunthaalum.. some people right.. .. paeriyaa USla vanthuta epapdiyaa... ellam change pannida mudiyumma.. ellam kalli kaalamnu nambalaiyum saethu thituvaanga... Not just US.. even if are educated.. padichuta.. can u crush all these traditions.. appadinu kaepaanga.. All these people got to change one day

Shy


Its coz they are scared shy...to remove that ignorance I asked is it written anywhere to prove that its bad lucknu....hopefully ppl will standup & question & follow their heart

sri_gan
02-10-2004, 12:10 AM
[quote=sri_gan]
Ada da Ethu kuuda theriyaatha.. ok solraen kaetukoo kai chupara kulanthai

Vekkam != Paesa mudiyaathavanga..

They can and will talk whenever required.. ;)

Shy

Athukaga poi kuda pesuvangala :oops:

venky1974
02-10-2004, 12:16 AM
Pattams...

These things are not written any where, this is what has been following from generation to generation.

These are superstitions... see.. it so happens that when ppl were performing a certain ritual and some on asked a widow or a childless woman to bless and things did not go right..ppl will start to blame that it happened because such and such a person was there and so it happend and then after that ppl have been scared to invite them..and these have been passed on all these years...

These things are never written as there are no hard facts to proove ..it is just mere coincidence that they happen to be there when it happens and the blame comes on them...

PPl are scared to take the chance and rightly so ( to a certain extent) We can just educate ppl... but are they willing to take the risk???

Cheers,

Shy
02-10-2004, 12:20 AM
Its coz they are scared shy...to remove that ignorance I asked is it written anywhere to prove that its bad lucknu....hopefully ppl will standup & question & follow their heart

Thats true butterfly.. but again we can question our grandma, relatives.. basically our family.. but oru 3rd person functionla irukaanganu vachukoonga.. appo we ask.. we will be branded as the head weight party asking questions without any due respect.

So first step as vasan did.. family'la ellam okva irunthaanga'na.. when 3rd party says somethign liek this.. familyla irukara paeriyavangaelae solluvaanga its our wish.. we dont care abt the tradition..but that woman over therenu :)

but it will take a longgg time.. ennaiku thaan post panni irunthaen.. from vikatan.. child marriages :( poor kids

Shy

butterfly
02-10-2004, 12:21 AM
These are superstitions... see.. it so happens that when ppl were performing a certain ritual and some on asked a widow or a childless woman to bless and things did not go right..ppl will start to blame that it happened because such and such a person was there and so it happend and then after that ppl have been scared to invite them..and these have been passed on all these years...



Y are women targeted here?...is a widower asked to do the same??..& if its the man's fault that his women cant get pregnant... wat then??

Shy
02-10-2004, 12:31 AM
These things are not written any where, this is what has been following from generation to generation.

No venky, I wont agree wit this. Bhagavat gita even had mentioned, if a widow has to be remarried.. theres some asupiscious time to do that.. else shes corrupt?

Also A widow has a purpose in life only if she had a kid ellaina.. nothing for her as hold'aam.. i am not sure if this is bhagavat gita. Then sati -- faithful wife thaanae .. ITs all written ones venky...

Shy

Shy
02-10-2004, 12:42 AM
Few written ones ..

(1) Widows shall abstain from hving on their forehead both vertical Tilak and round symbol.

(2) Male shall not touch widows who are not closely related.

(3) Widows shall render loving service to Lord as if Hes their husband. They shall always behave in conformity with instructions of nearest relatives like father or son and others, in no case can they behave independently.

(4) Young widows shall not converse with young males except under unavoidable circumstances.

(5) Widows shall not get education from male person who is not closely related. They shall control physical urges by means of undertaking Vratas and fasts.

(6) Widows who have wealth just sufficient for their life-time only, shall not offer it even for religion work.

(7) Widow shall take meals only once during the day, shall not deliberately look at beasts and birds and others in sexual conjugation.

(8) Widows shall not put on dress similar to that of married women with husbands living, or identical with that of women who have become Sanyasini or who have renounced the world. They shall never put on a dress contrary to conventions and customs of the place, family, and practice.

(9) Widows shall not participate in sports of holi and shall not put on ornaments and pretty colored garments etc. They shall never wear transparent clothes mixed with golden fabrics.

Just a few guys ... I am pissed of whoever wrote this.. cant they know that they too have feelings, heart

Shy

venky1974
02-10-2004, 12:48 AM
Y are women targeted here?...is a widower asked to do the same??..& if its the man's fault that his women cant get pregnant... wat then??


Its is really difficult to answer to your question here pattams... very good question, if its a mans fault that he can't help his lady bear a child then he needs to accept that and that is what needs to happen.

I think that all that was written was written ages ago and i think unfortunately it was written by men and may be women were not consulted at that time...

( Accepted that god made Adam first but that was just the prototype... When he made Eve that was his master piece....Cheer up)

Whey men are not targeted.... I have no Idea...it is sad , but I will tell you something here.

If the family of the widow or the childless women (Husband) is by her side all the time through thick and think , the society can' t touch them. Its upon men to protect their women folk and if men can't do that they are not men.

Shy,

I had replied that these things are not written any where about the superstitions and not about re marraige.

When Pandu the father of Pandava's died..his first wife performed sati and not Kunti, casue she was told that she needs to take care of her childeren. So what I am saying here is that Sati was not a ritual or forced.Later on stupid ppl started practicing this as a ritual and that is where it all went wrong.

Sati is not a part of our culture and is not written any where. Sati was performed by the widow casue she feels that the fire canot harm her..she is just embracing the warmth of her husband. ( i may be totally wrong here but this is what I have read)

I am not sure if there is anything written in the Gita about it. I will surely find out, now that you say.

Cheers,

venky1974
02-10-2004, 12:50 AM
Shy,

Its really cruel of who ever wrote such things... they are just selfish,selfcentered , crazy ppl..

I don't know what to say..

Shy
02-10-2004, 12:56 AM
Shy,

Its really cruel of who ever wrote such things... they are just selfish,selfcentered , crazy ppl..

I don't know what to say..

Enakkum athu thaan thonithu.. what can we say right??? Was so sad thinking abt how they would have felt in those years and even now in some rural areas :(

Shy

Shri
02-10-2004, 06:37 AM
Our society is still finding it hard to accept widows and childless females into functions. Hopefully it will be okay in time when all educated people stand together bravely to fight against it. I still have a lil concern....Whereas a widower can remarry as many times as he likes, a widow cannot remarry irrespective of her age. Why is this so? In this society where getting widows into functions is going to be such a difficult tast...do u think getting them to remarry will be accepted?

butterfly
02-12-2004, 10:03 PM
If the family of the widow or the childless women (Husband) is by her side all the time through thick and think , the society can' t touch them. Its upon men to protect their women folk and if men can't do that they are not men.


so true Venky...I think we shudnt wait for the change...but we shud be the change

shy,
The 9 points u had written...I can understand few points...that it may be to help the women have some control & to protect her frm men who wud take advantage of her...but some of them are out of boundary....If she doesnt object to getting remarried....Y shud she be stopped...like eating meals only once during the day...& not wearing clothes & ornaments like married women ...I dont understand the concept behind that.



Our society is still finding it hard to accept widows and childless females into functions. Hopefully it will be okay in time when all educated people stand together bravely to fight against it. I still have a lil concern....Whereas a widower can remarry as many times as he likes, a widow cannot remarry irrespective of her age. Why is this so? In this society where getting widows into functions is going to be such a difficult tast...do u think getting them to remarry will be accepted?

shri,
Very good points & question...It depends on us individuals shri...to ask this question to ourself....are we willing to take that risk???

sri_gan
02-12-2004, 11:46 PM
are we willing to take that risk???


What do you mean by this butterfly?

venky1974
02-12-2004, 11:51 PM
a widow cannot remarry irrespective of her age. Why is this so?


well I think this is not entirely true . Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Brahmo Samaj started this in Indian Pre Independence era and it was taken by protest at first , but today things are working for the better.

Yes, in the Rural areas , ppl have to be educated that a widow needs a life too.

Cheers,
Venky

butterfly
02-13-2004, 02:13 AM
Quote:

are we willing to take that risk???



What do you mean by this butterfly?




Sri,
wat I am asking is...are we willing to standup against such evils....If there are widows & childless women are we willing to give them a chance & stand by them knowing the risk is that few elders are going to be against us...standing up to them...also involving them more in our family situations....proving to those who believe they are bad luck...that they are wrong in naming ppl

Shy
02-13-2004, 02:20 AM
butterfly, widow'voo ellainu other ponnu if a guy wanted to take advantage he will. Right?? Just because she is not allowed to wear those stuff will not stop that. Avalukku others paathu aasai irukalaam right, even thou shes matured enough to find which guy is good hearted or preying on hernu???

Dress ithu pootaa guys wont do anything to u ellam chumma.. really apapdiya erukku, how many widows are raped?? no butterfly... avangalooda aasaigalai oru third person key pootu pooti thooki yaerinchutaanga. Really oru ponnu irunathu poona husband maela aasai vachu other guy vaendaamnu irukalaam, appadi vara guysaiyum she can ignore .. but she wanted to wear whatever he had bought for hernu vachupoom, atleast antha santhoosham kuuda avalavukku vaendaama?

Shy

Shy
02-13-2004, 02:21 AM
butterfly, widow'voo ellainu other ponnu if a guy wanted to take advantage he will. Right?? Just because she is not allowed to wear those stuff will not stop that. Avalukku others paathu aasai irukalaam right, even thou shes matured enough to find which guy is good hearted or preying on hernu???

Dress ithu pootaa guys wont do anything to u ellam chumma.. really apapdiya erukku, how many widows are raped?? no butterfly... avangalooda aasaigalai oru third person key pootu pooti thooki yaerinchutaanga. Really oru ponnu irunathu poona husband maela aasai vachu other guy vaendaamnu irukalaam, appadi vara guysaiyum she can ignore .. but she wanted to wear whatever he had bought for hernu vachupoom, atleast antha santhoosham kuuda avalavukku vaendaama?

Shy

vasan
02-13-2004, 02:24 AM
No risk, Butterfly. A better word would be, in my mind, are we willing to give them the chance? 'Risk' kinda sounds like... are we ready to take the chance of failure? Where is the failure in this case? Here all that we need is courage and strength of purpose to stand up to what we believe.

Looking for a bride, though for some unexplainable reason, means looking for unmarried girls, perhaps the mind needs to be enlarged to consider all single women - widowed, divorced, single moms too. Whats the big diff? We should look for compatible women - which is more important than if she was previously married. Pity, women don't have this choice in India...

mm.. I sound brave in theory. But when the time comes, whether cupid strikes or mom shows a photo, and when the choice is mine... I hope NOT TO impose 'previously unmarried' as a condition. Any single women is fine! (No stealing women, or breaking relationships, please!!) Mom and Dad, if they are shocked about what I think, well, they perhaps ought to know their son a little better... :) :) :)

Some day, if and when the situation presents itself.. lets see.. :D :D

vasan
02-13-2004, 02:32 AM
Lest some one rushes to question...

Please don't jump to conclusions that the way I wrote sounds like I am making a sacrifice... I don't mean it that way at all. All I am saying, right now, I could care less if a girl I like is previously married, or loved or widowed or she is a single mom.

She is no different from a unattached, never before married girl. Only thing to consider is if she would learn to love me, just as I would... Commitment and happiness is what follows a relationship - and not what was before. Past is dead. Let the dead bury their dead !

suha
02-13-2004, 02:33 AM
acho cho yennaku..... widow , childless pathi laam teriyadhu .......yaarachum idhu solunga..... orru ponnuku which age is suitable for married? :wink: correct age sollanum ok ya :D

Shri
02-13-2004, 03:16 AM
suha, india la 21 leagal age for women to get married. aana i dont think it is being followed in our rural areas. I know lot of girls who got married before that. :cry:
we are talking about women around this age who are widowed and women who might be childless.....am i clear?
side track:
Have u heard about the this? Men who work in soudi and dubai ...in those areas. they get married leave their wifes behind in india and go to work. They come back once in 3 or 4 yrs and go back again! role of wife is to give birth to his baby and bring up the baby ...what kinda life is this? what do u think bout this?

cheers,
Shri

venky1974
02-13-2004, 03:47 AM
wat I am asking is...are we willing to standup against such evils....If there are widows & childless women are we willing to give them a chance & stand by them knowing the risk is that few elders are going to be against us...standing up to them...also involving them more in our family situations....proving to those who believe they are bad luck...that they are wrong in naming ppl



I remember on thing I have heard. We can say everything now but....

"Taneken vanda terium"

I don't know what would I do in a situation like this. :(

Cheers,

Shy
02-13-2004, 04:11 PM
Thats very true venky.. we can say something... but we might act different or feel different when we are in that situation :(

Shy

anainar
02-13-2004, 04:43 PM
Well, about remarriage we seem to be forgetting another important aspect of marriage here. Age is also another factor. Normally a widow/widower takes her/his own time to get out of the loss. And by the time they make up their mind on getting into another serios relationship, they might be 30+( unless the unforunate incident happened immediately after marriage ). Most of the guys get married at the age of 27-30 and the choices of unmarried men becomes very very limited beyond 30. A 27 year old guy would think twice to marry a 30 year old girl. That is a debatabe point, but it introduces another variable in the already fragile equation.

But I strongly feel, winds are changing. I know incidents in my relative family only where the guy got killed in an accident when he was 25 years old. The girl is my relative and was 22 at that time. They might have lived together hardly for 2 years before this tragedy struck them. The younger brother of the guy married her again after a year. That is really uncommon in our community and it did happen. There were initial murmurs but now they two are living happily with a child. So, we have a precedent in our family roots which can be looked upon and provided as a reference that things can happen and happen for good.

Cheers

Shy
02-13-2004, 05:23 PM
Lest some one rushes to question...

Please don't jump to conclusions that the way I wrote sounds like I am making a sacrifice... I don't mean it that way at all. All I am saying, right now, I could care less if a girl I like is previously married, or loved or widowed or she is a single mom.

She is no different from a unattached, never before married girl. Only thing to consider is if she would learn to love me, just as I would... Commitment and happiness is what follows a relationship - and not what was before. Past is dead. Let the dead bury their dead !

Vasan,

Right now.. but in actual situation, we might not know.. we cant assume ourselves to be the same when we are given a situation like this. When past is dead, there wont be any strains at all in life vasan.. for once avar eppadi panni irukaa mataar theriyumma....if she said liek that.. it might hurt u a lot.. eppo ellai soluveenga.. comaprisions ellam pannina u cant handle that.. so as venky said.. in practical life we might not know how vulnerable it will be :(

Shy

vasan
02-13-2004, 06:06 PM
Vasan,

Right now.. but in actual situation, we might not know.. we cant assume ourselves to be the same when we are given a situation like this. When past is dead, there wont be any strains at all in life vasan.. for once avar eppadi panni irukaa mataar theriyumma....if she said liek that.. it might hurt u a lot.. eppo ellai soluveenga.. comaprisions ellam pannina u cant handle that.. so as venky said.. in practical life we might not know how vulnerable it will be :(

Shy
Shy,

Vulnerability is one thing I will any way have to face. If I can accept a girl who was in love with another person, but did not get married for whatever the reasons may be, why should I not be willing to marry a girl who is widowed or divorced? For that matter, what happen if the girl says, 'you know my dad, or bro or this or that person would not have done it like that?'... Life is going to be about adjusting - and that sort of adjustments come with every one - whether the girl is always been single or loved a person before or was married to one.

We all have our own baggages to carry. Burdens of the past. Silly, or difficult or pleasant experiences. I am not saying I am perfect or I don't have these issues, but given time, I think I will make choices, based on my understanding, but not according to some blind beliefs imposed by any one- including my own dear parents - though I love them much.

Practical life is hard enough, with out society imposing silly stuff on our lifes. My reason for adding 'right now' is only because of uncertainities in my own life and decisions. (Not out of idealogical problems, but just flat out indecisiveness...).. But the bottom line would always be the same. I could care less if the girl for me was always single or otherwise..

:) :) :)

Being bold on a Friday!

Vasan

ps: please don't think I am talking bellicose, or out of pride. Its not a matter of pride. Just what I believe or think. Thats it. It exactly like the belief I have for STOP signs. I stop. I don't take pride in stopping. I do it, because I think thats what it is for. Same way, a girl is a girl is a girl. Always single or previously married. No difference what so ever.

anainar
02-13-2004, 06:22 PM
Shy,

You are saying one facet of the problem that can happen. If some one has the mindset to compare, it will happen what ever be the case. It is a trait that cannot be shut down for some aspects and opened for another aspect. It is upto the one who is making the decision whether the other person has the comparison trait or not and whether he/she can accept it or not. But believe me it is very hard not to compare. And we have to live with it, whether a single woman althrough or otherwise.

The baggage of past cannot be erased how hard you try. Even divorcees would have had moments that they would like to cherish when they were together. Those moments cannot be erased. Widows who had fabulous married life will take even longer to get out of that mode, forget about erasing. It is something they both have to live with and learn to cope up with.

Cheers.

sagi
02-20-2004, 09:31 AM
RUBBISH..nalla manasu mattum irunthaa pothum...

Minik
02-25-2004, 05:26 PM
If the family of the widow or the childless women (Husband) is by her side all the time through thick and think , the society can' t touch them. Its upon men to protect their women folk and if men can't do that they are not men


venky you said the man will protect the wife through thick and think, but how long, what if the husband dies before the women after the marriage with in two year then who is going to protect her. Is'nt the world again going to curse her saying she could'nt bear a child and she ate her husband.

Shy
02-25-2004, 05:32 PM
RUBBISH..nalla manasu mattum irunthaa pothum...

Sagi.. enna...yaarai solreenga.. konjam explain peech ;)

Shy

butterfly
02-25-2004, 10:13 PM
venky you said the man will protect the wife through thick and think, but how long, what if the husband dies before the women after the marriage with in two year then who is going to protect her. Is'nt the world again going to curse her saying she could'nt bear a child and she ate her husband

True Minik,
watever happens its the women who get blamed...but atleast our generation is thinking & questioning this...so hopefully it wud be better for the next generation
.

sagi
02-26-2004, 12:21 AM
My question is Y is it widows & women who cannot have children not allowed to participate in any important functions....even if they do...they are not allowed to do anything???...

I read this and written that Shy :) i said if that person has a good mind then there is no more problem.. :)

Shy
02-26-2004, 12:25 AM
Sagi.. very good thought.. but the problem is not with single person..if that single person thinks,... the society laughs at them too... We are dicussing we as current generation what can we do to avoid this ??? or since its been a part of the culture for so long.. would have been there any good thought behind this :b: hope u got the point, eppo sollunga, other than good mind.. what else can we do

Shy

sagi
02-26-2004, 12:47 AM
true, but in my family, my father never cares abotu these things. he gives importance to thier hearts..

ragi_kutty
03-29-2004, 10:59 AM
hi naan ungalai onnum kekkalaama?

Oru husband sethaal antha wife'ukku thaalikodi and pottu poda urimai irukka?

Bluelotus
03-29-2004, 03:02 PM
Ragi,

A woman gains the Taali/mangalyam/mangala suttra and the Kumkum pottu when she gets married...hence if the husband passes away she loses both....
The Taali is only worn by women whose husbands are still alive....he ties it on her neck using a specific verse...look it up dear...try google search or I do believe Venky said something abt this on another topic ...look up: should taali be worn or some other such topic.

The widow can wear vibuthi and sandalwood paste pottu...

hope it was useful.