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Comenaughty
03-20-2004, 07:28 PM
hey all....
topic inspired by our swarnamalya... of late women have been coming in public abt being harassed by mother in law, husband etc..... but r the women misusing it and harassing the men instead? 1000 ppl will b ready to listen to a women when she goes in to public and says that shes being harassed....r the women misusing it?

to start with, according to me, going by the current trned, women will start misusing it......

opinions?

anainar
03-20-2004, 08:41 PM
Comenaughty,

Laws in general are biased towards women, whether it is harassment, divorce or dowry. It is always presumed that women are not criminals normally. So any wman who knows the law can put a guy's life beyond repair.

For e.g, normally the burden of proof lies on the complainant.If some one is charged with murder by the Public prosecution, they have to prove that he/she committed the murder. But for dowry act, the burden of proof that a guy did not demand dowry lies with him. So a guy has to prove that he did not demand dowry, while a girl can lodge a complaint and unless proved otherwise by the guy, he will be guilty. I am pretty sure any girl who knows this point can misuse it if she wants to or settle personal scores or jump to limelight. This for sure is a draconian law, that has put families in shame. Dowry demand is a non bailable offence

Whether women misuse it or not a different story. But the scary thing there is a huge loophole that can be misused if some one wants to. A legal system cannot allow that, but it is around and that is the saddest part.

Cheers

sagi
03-21-2004, 01:47 AM
Anainar you are giving ideas here :nono:

I agree with the part where you said that 100s of people are ready to listen to a girl's story.
But at the end...anyone try to help her?
That's my question :think:
Don't you think guys have the power to come out of this problem?
May be where we live...like usa, us,nz...a girls can really put a guy in danger.
But is it possible in India??[ i really donno about india..so asking you..that;s all. no hard feelings. ]

anainar
03-21-2004, 02:00 AM
Sagi,

It is not just people listening to stories.I wrote about Indian law only. And any one who knows all this can really take a guy for task. Not necessarily the girl, but any one related to the girl, her parents, sisters etc. One complaint and that is it, the guy and any one named in the complaint can be arrested and cannot come out in bail.

The point I made is law follows one route for normal criminal offence, but for dowry case, it follows different route. To me that is absurd. A girl can put a guy in danger in India too. Before marriage or after marriage or even after 10 years of marriage, dowry case can be used as a weapon. First thing police do is to take the guy to custody. Then the investigation starts.

If girls are looking at help, tell me who will help a guy too? Guys normally take care of themselves. If the girl is strong, she can not only take care of herself, but also take the guys to task.

Cheers

anainar
03-21-2004, 02:00 AM
Sagi,

It is not just people listening to stories.I wrote about Indian law only. And any one who knows all this can really take a guy for task. Not necessarily the girl, but any one related to the girl, her parents, sisters etc. One complaint and that is it, the guy and any one named in the complaint can be arrested and cannot come out in bail.

The point I made is law follows one route for normal criminal offence, but for dowry case, it follows different route. To me that is absurd. A girl can put a guy in danger in India too. Before marriage or after marriage or even after 10 years of marriage, dowry case can be used as a weapon. First thing police do is to take the guy to custody. Then the investigation starts.

If girls are looking at help, tell me who will help a guy too? Guys normally take care of themselves. If the girl is strong, she can not only take care of herself, but also take the guys to task.

Cheers

unique
03-21-2004, 02:06 AM
Some cases might be genuine ones.....but ella casesum appadi irukkumnu naan sollalai. ...

indha entertainment industry la irukaravangalai vechu u cannot say anything....cos innaiku love pannuvaanga,naalaiku kalyanam pannipaanga,kozhandaiyum pethupaanga aparam ennaku avanukum sari varalainu odhungiduvaanga....

if u take normal persons life,i don t think noone misuses(maybe am looking on the brighter side )....kodumai paduthinalum husbandoda,maamiyaaroda sendhu vaazharavangalum irukaanga.

idhu maadhiri ellam US or say any western countries la nadakardhu sagajam.....just for the craze of money n fame.....

anainar
03-21-2004, 02:12 AM
Unique,

The question is not whether some one misuses or not. I also know it not misused a lot. But, there is a potential to misuse and even if 10 girls misuse it, it ruins the life of 10 guys and that too with the help of the law which is partial.

Dowry is a social problem and has to be tackled that way rather than taking the legal route that too with a blind eye towards men, putting the onus on him to prove his innocence.

Cheers

sri_gan
03-21-2004, 02:15 AM
What Unique say is very true.

To an extent, I think Swarnamalya tries to enjoy a gain the popularity through the negative impact.

Ofcourse namma media's kku ithelam ippa pozhuthu pokku mari aiduchu... Nenga antha thalai ppu seithi padichava theriyum... its a comedy or a tragedya nu.

Hollywood le ithe mari neiya stunning attempts pannuvanga ethukkuna people oda kavanathai avanga thiruppa...

Dowry Harassment..... enna thideerna varum!!! gimme a break.

sagi
03-21-2004, 02:16 AM
dowry exists in USA ?? :think:

unique
03-21-2004, 02:26 AM
Unique,

The question is not whether some one misuses or not. I also know it not misused a lot. But, there is a potential to misuse and even if 10 girls misuse it, it ruins the life of 10 guys and that too with the help of the law which is partial.

Dowry is a social problem and has to be tackled that way rather than taking the legal route that too with a blind eye towards men, putting the onus on him to prove his innocence.

Cheers

Anainar

You say that law is partial,but b4 going to the court,say if the guy is an Industrialists son n girl is from a middle class family,appo sattam yaar pechai ketkum. B4 going to the court the girl has to lodge a complaint in police station adhukaparam thaane case file panni ella procedure....Wat if the guys father bribes n sees to that case does nt get filed.

Well the above situation is not abt dowry or physical abuse after marriage.Generala oru situation sonnen.

RaasuKutty
03-21-2004, 02:38 AM
If some one is charged with murder by the Public prosecution, they have to prove that he/she committed the murder. But for dowry act, the burden of proof that a guy did not demand dowry lies with him. So a guy has to prove that he did not demand dowry, while a girl can lodge a complaint and unless proved otherwise by the guy, he will be guilty


i hate this reverse logic... there are other cases also for which they use the reverse logic.. in all types of cases where this reverse logic is used... there are lots of instances where the Petitionar has been found guilty of misusing this....

men harassed women for time... now its their turn and for a change they do it legally... enna panna... mens association is a thinkable solution.....

anainar
03-21-2004, 02:43 AM
Sagi,

Dowry does not exist in the USA. I am talking about Indian law and situation in India only. USA has strong laws for abuse by husband as well as parents. Indian laws are biased towards women. That is all I said.

Coming to your question Unique, some industrialist who wants dowry may not marry a middle class girl. If that happens, it should be a love marriage, in which case dowry may not come in the picture between the bride and groom.

My only point is law has to be equal to both the genders. Dowry law is draconian and can ruin a life on the fly if the girl decides.

Cheers

sagi
03-21-2004, 02:44 AM
rasu why "warning:?

RaasuKutty
03-21-2004, 02:48 AM
rasu why "warning:?

sri_gan anne kitta kelungaa....

vasan
03-21-2004, 02:49 AM
Actually much of the laws made to protect women are in that sense draconian. Abuse (sexual or other wise) is another example. More often than not, its the innocent who has to prove his innocence..

On the other hand the society is still harsh on women. The laws have failed misrably in containing violence against women or dowry (in india)... Complaining to police might help - but virtually no police is free of corruption. Aren't people in cops families accept/give dowry? Its sad really..

sagi
03-21-2004, 02:54 AM
poor girls...i mean the ones with dowri problem. :(

Rasu - ok ok hopefully he doesn't give me a warning ;)

Comenaughty
03-21-2004, 03:31 AM
ppl have been vociferously objecting the dowry system in india..... and now the law say its illegal to give as well as take dowry.....but if u look at history, it was the same indian law, which laid the foundation stone for dowry system.if u recollect, in ancient india, women arent allowed to inherit paternal property....they CANNOT inherit according to law.... coz of that, marriage was used as a route thru which a daughter in a family was given a fair share of the property....this was called "dowry"..... out forefathers appreciated and encouraged dowry system to circumvent the draconian indian rules......

but now..... the society is finding it tough to abolish the dowry system as it is deeply inured in to the society..... if thats the case, how is it fair to blame only the male part of the society.....behind every man theres a woman..:ee:..and in case of dowry, it is the mother in law who plays the role, more than the guy himself..... ;)

vasan
03-21-2004, 04:01 AM
but now..... the society is finding it tough to abolish the dowry system as it is deeply inured in to the society..... if thats the case, how is it fair to blame only the male part of the society.....behind every man theres a woman....and in case of dowry, it is the mother in law who plays the role, more than the guy himself.....


Absolutely Naughty... The deal is its a social evil. Parents want dowry for their sons. Parents save and borrow to give dowry to their daughters. Guys want money or do not want to stop their parents. Girls want to take money, or have no choice, or can not stand up to anyone..

The problems are entrenched in our society. But the evil part is not about the money - but demanding it, and torturing women when they can't produce it. Ultimately the women suffer in more ways than any one else. And that has to be stopped.

No point in blaming women. We don't give them choices, but are very quick to blame it on women. If moms-in-law demand, what on earth father in law and husband doing about it? When it is wrong why can't guys stand up say, duh?

While everyone is indulging in this thing, only the girls seem to be suffering. That is what makes is a crime against women.

sri_gan
03-21-2004, 04:13 AM
rasu why "warning:?

Personal track::

Raasukutty kku naan than warning koduthen athu nethikki...Appuram ellam clear aiduchu Innum bala ennoda Private message pakalai pola... Still its in my outbox.. once pathuta clear aidum.

Main Track::

What Naughty says is very true... entha payyan poi dowry venum nu kekurathu illai... women than avanga mela avangale manna vari pottu kiranga.

Neriya peru vella vetti illama ithaiye oru vellaiya pannuranga pola irrukku...thats the only reason for this dowry crap. Avanga avanga olunga veliya patha... ithellam irrukathu.

But in this swarnamalya case I'm not sure it can be a fact, I don't see any sync at all... Pakalam. Antha amma nadikka vantha appo avanga husband ok sonnar sollichu ippa vanthu kasu kekurar solluthu... intha amma nadicha padam onnu appuram antha onnukkum othavatha illamai puthamai...

Ithule time pass pannura oru ponnu kitta dowry keppanaga nu enakku thoonalai... US le antha amma eppadi sue pannanum mu padichirukku pola ellam kalak kodumai :sm12:

sagi
03-21-2004, 04:17 AM
sri, are you saying it's "kailkaalam?"

sagi
03-21-2004, 04:17 AM
by the way what's happening to vindhiya?? :think:

sri_gan
03-21-2004, 04:21 AM
sri, are you saying it's "kailkaalam?"

kailkaalam illaigo... "Kali Kaalam" nu solluvanga... it is just a time calculation.

Kaila Kaalam irruntha evalo sathikalam :sm12: anna athunala than kalam yaarum kailaiyum illai.


Kala Kodumai means - Problem in a timely fashion nu vachikonga.

sagi
03-21-2004, 04:24 AM
oh :think: ninga sonna sari thanungooooooo

Comenaughty
03-21-2004, 04:25 AM
If moms-in-law demand, what on earth father in law and husband doing about it? When it is wrong why can't guys stand up say, duh?


vasan,
its simple..... if a guys monthly income is 10000 and his wife wants a 4 lakh car, the guy will bow to it.coz hes bounded by love and love blinds him.similarly, when mother in law opens the dowry topic, father in law agrees coz shes after all his wife and the guy accepts coz she is his mom..... wat if parental love is more than love towards wife? then the guy and father in law will jus be a tanjore doll..... ;)

anainar
03-21-2004, 04:26 AM
Well, for sure dowry is a social evil and needs to be eradicated. Law is the least effective way to counter a social offence. Dowry act was enacted in 1961 FYI and has been in force for the past 43 years. Has it achieve the objective of dowry eradication? No, going by the current trend. Social evils have to be fought socially and not be enacting laws. If the father of a girl wants to give dowry, he will find a way always. Sameway if the father of a guy wants to ask for dowry, he can always demand it.

Without the complicity of the concerned persons getting married, dowry cannot propogate. It is upto to the younger generation to stand up to the evil. It takes real strength to say no to free money for a guy or a girl. As long as people dont have that mental strength, dowry will persist in some form or the other.

I look at the brighter side and see more and more independent guys and girls deciding their own lives and making choices which should eradicate dowry over a period of time. If at all dowry disappears in 2040 it is not because of Dowry act, but because of social awakening.

Cheers

vasan
03-21-2004, 04:38 AM
its simple..... if a guys monthly income is 10000 and his wife wants a 4 lakh car, the guy will bow to it.coz hes bounded by love and love blinds him.similarly, when mother in law opens the dowry topic, father in law agrees coz shes after all his wife and the guy accepts coz she is his mom..... wat if parental love is more than love towards wife? then the guy and father in law will jus be a tanjore doll.....


Its even more simple: Men can't live spineless lives and blame things on 'love blinds' and women.... If parental love more than love for wife, then perhaps guys should stay at home as mommy-boy..

Common.. A greater fault lies with men. No mom or wife can force things beyond the limits...

anainar
03-21-2004, 04:47 AM
Haaa! It cant be a better joke Naughty! For a guy to take dowry just because his mom says or his wife wants is total nonsense. No mom will demand dowry if the son plants his foot down and says, "I dont want any dowry". Guys find it easier to put the blame on parents, rather than admitting that they cant say no to free money.

It is not that difficult if some one has made up his mind not to take dowry.

Cheers

sri_gan
03-21-2004, 05:25 AM
Haaa! It cant be a better joke Naughty! For a guy to take dowry just because his mom says or his wife wants is total nonsense. No mom will demand dowry if the son plants his foot down and says, "I dont want any dowry". Guys find it easier to put the blame on parents, rather than admitting that they cant say no to free money.

It is not that difficult if some one has made up his mind not to take dowry.

Cheers

Iyanaar what you are saying is very true antha mari full stand le nikira people rombe kammi.

Neriya Pasangalukku avanga melaiya confidence illai, athunala vara problem than ithu.

Innonu nenga pakanum Iyanaar, Ithu related namma oorula sollura innoru visheyam vanthu, if a guy says he don't want dowry:

1. People speak, that guy is having some problem.

Ithuvum nadakkum, athukku enna sollurenga.

One more thing, Aluguravanga sollurathu ellam unmai aidathu...athai arainchu patha than unmai theriyum, athu varaikkum unmai kuda poithan.


Basic thing, there are lot of people who are no job to do athunala ippadi ellam pesathaseiyvan... athukaga ovoru tharaiyum paka mudiyama.

When there is a legitimate problem, then justice can help to solve it.

If justice is used for pupularity, thats bad and its a big :nono:

Comenaughty
03-21-2004, 08:22 AM
Haaa! It cant be a better joke Naughty! For a guy to take dowry just because his mom says or his wife wants is total nonsense. No mom will demand dowry if the son plants his foot down and says, "I dont want any dowry". Guys find it easier to put the blame on parents, rather than admitting that they cant say no to free money.

It is not that difficult if some one has made up his mind not to take dowry.

Cheers

anainar,
jus as sri posted, i emphasize the same point.....very few guys take a stand "no dowry" and stick to it..... money blinds ethics.....and it isnt surprising coz money has become an indispensable material in this world. assume this situation..... average guy gets married to an industrialist's daughter..... the guy travels on a TVS scooty whil his father in law whizzes arnd on a lancer or watever.... even if the guy isnt bothered abt it, how much time does it take for his mother to brainwash him and demand dowry..... think abt it..... im not telling mother in law is altogehter responsible.....but pointing that the family as such plays a role..... and who stands to b the loser? its the guy and his wife.....

and the indian rule has been framed in such a way that guys stand to lose a lot in this issue...... if the rule is gonna be misused by a girl.....

reks
03-21-2004, 09:03 AM
if a guy says he don't want dowry:

1. People speak, that guy is having some problem.


ithu ellam 5, 10 yrs back holds good sri.. ippo ellam yaarum apdi solrathu illa.. its still being used an excuse...

yup... as naughty says, money blinds ethics, vlaues... if the guys let their parents to brainwash them, its cos they want to... mitha visayathula ellam avungaluku vendiya padi nadanthukranga illa.. appo ellam parents'a brainwash panna vidrathu illaye...

i dont think, in india ppl(excluding the cine fld ppl) are misusing this law much... but thanks anai, for the info.. mite be useful oneday... who knows :wink:

vasan
03-21-2004, 09:17 AM
but thanks anai, for the info.. mite be useful oneday... who knows


Kadavule.. Kaapathupaaaa... :sm18:
Veeralaksmi padam vera avator-laa... ithu enga poi mudiyumo... :00: :D :D :D

We don't know if the cine people are misusing it. We can't presume it to be so, can we? I mean, women in cine industry might be getting divorced, which could be because they are bolder and could stand on their own feet!! Also not many of them divorce because of 'dowry'. On the other hand cine industry does mistreat women. Truth be told, commoners too don't really 'respect' them (just one news item in a yellow journal, just see how much of bad-mouth an actress would get... ).. So far cine industry is considered people should learn to separate reality from the on-screen image..

On the main topic: How would we improve the law (or abolish it and yet guarentee reasonable safety for women in india).. ?

reks
03-21-2004, 09:53 AM
:) :)

yup... i agree with u.. we dont know if they are misusing it... and wudnt be fair to blame them without any base....

wat i meant by excluding cine fld ppl was, they are more likely to put up some stunts for publicity sake.. not dowry harassment etc.. just in general...

i dont think the law can do anything more about this... the law can neither put a full stop to the dowry system, nor can prevent ppl from misusing it... people's mentality should change... i think, dowry sys has been reduced to a considerable extend now, with the percentage of arranged marriages decreasing... mabbe our next generation, it will be still better...

but misusing it, if as anai says there is a big loophole... let it be yaar... atleast the guyz and their families will learn to treat the girl, who comes to live in their home, better... evlo gas stove vedikra news keturkom... atha vida the rate of girls misusing this will be much much much lesser... :ahha: ...

ogi.. just kidding.. now this too depends on the ppl and their values... I dont think the law can be changed much... the girl leaves her parents, her home and comes to live with the guys and his family... now watever happens within the house, there'll most probably be no witness... the guys family will obviously support the guy in either case, harrasment or misuse... the law is pretty helpless here.. mabbe thats why the loophole...

vasan
03-21-2004, 10:07 AM
Yeah.. Its the proverbial double edged sword. You are doomed with the law or with out the law.. Its not the law that lacks teeth - but the people who enforce it. Since when did people impose law - any law - fairly and impartially? Add to this the people who twist the law to their personal benefits - for example women abusing dowry laws..

Personally I think any amount of law making will do no good - until there is some respect for law of the land. People, from all walks of society coolly disobey (nearly every one does it, only difference some laws are mundane some are more serious.. !!). 'Thirudanaai paarththu thirunthaa vittaal thiruttai olikka mudiyaathu'.. Dowry is one such a thing...

Vasan

ps: First time when a friend of mine told me that (in some places) there is a prize on each guy, I was totally shocked. It seems the doctors have a rate, engineers another and computer chaps another.. if you are an undergrad, you have a rate, with an additional degree you add to it.. and so on.. When I told him that is illegal to accept dowry, he was laughing (like I was the idiot!!), and said, this is the 'tradition'... And so far as I know he did get some 'handsome' dowry too.. (if you can call it that.. I think its Judas's Silver, my self.. ) Any way, few topics make me angry in a jiffy.. and this is one of them.. :) Not good with all the acidity.. :ahha:

Bluelotus
03-21-2004, 10:43 AM
Hmmm :think:

the giving of a dowry is a custom which has been practised by many, if not all nations.
It provided the wife with a certain security if something was to happen to her husband. Of course as certain laws prohibited women from owning property, etc it was given to the husband for safekeeping. (the dower now stands for the share of a man's property given to his widow)

Now that times have changed and women can own properties, etc...the dower/dowry has been relegated to the history books...in most countries.

I was quite shockd to learn that still many men of Asian descent who have grown in western countries still expect a dowry.
Considering that wives nowdays work and earn a salary and don't require the security that the dower offered them in bygone eras......I'm starting to think that those men must suffer from some psychotic disorder.

Considering that traditionally the Bride's family must cover the cost of the wedding....which these days can cost as much as £20,000 for a fairly basic wedding (total waste of money if u ask me....I could put that in a saving account and do something a lot more interesting with it).... to expect a dowry as well is preposterous!
this for both men and women....one shouldn't expect anything other than love and moral support from one's parents....not even an inheritance...

I do find quite strange tht the mother-in-law is alays in the picture when dowry cases make the headlines......does being a mother-in-law suddenly turns u into a greedy heartless monster?

It is a shame that women r abusing the Dowry law in India
But getting rid of that law could have some terrible consequences too. Social reforms is required too....but abolishing the law b4 it has taken place would be suicidal.

What if we made every potential partners sign one of those pre-nuptial contracts?
would that help?



Blue.

PS:
Which guy in geetham in all honesty expects a dowry? I wonder if anyone would have the courage to truly express their opinion without fear of backlash from the social reformists :think:

suha
03-21-2004, 11:27 AM
dowry naa.... :think: aama yen dowry vangurango........ :Ksp: :Ksp: :Ksp: :Ksp:

vasan
03-21-2004, 11:29 AM
Good points...

Two things to say too.. Don't plainly blame the guys or his parents or the society. I think the evil is there in all... Each might be a saint, but so far as dowry is considered, put to gether they become some green monster..

secondly, treatment of women in general - and sharing of inherited wealth in particular should be guarenteed for women. Why should my sister get less just because she is a woman? Completely illogical. But equally illogical is the age old custom of parents being taken care of by their sons only. It does exist even now. And though in theory people love their parents, in the end money is an issue.. The completely skewed up vision of things in society is just awful...

Two more, but on a lighter note..: A wedding costs 20000 pounds !! :00: And all the money is spend by the girls parents? Whew.. Fellas.. Is eloping against Indian culture.. ? I mean isn't the drive-through thingy any less valid as a wedding?

Secondly.. thanks for introducing pre-nups.. :sm12: :sm12: Hello Hollywood !! Seriously Blues, the problem is one of law abiding not introducing new laws.. Whatever thing 'social reformers' introduce people will find loopholes or ways to escape..

Bluelotus
03-21-2004, 12:26 PM
Is eloping against Indian culture.. ? I mean isn't the drive-through thingy any less valid as a wedding?

Well I asked my Mummy abt it...she threatened to kill me....apparently it's like a huge scandal....although I did tell her that she can totally find the poor sod...but no luck...man I could do soooo much more with tht money.... :doh:

Money does have a very strong power over ppl doesn't it.....it can divide families break freindships...and all over a simple idea...




secondly, treatment of women in general - and sharing of inherited wealth in particular should be guarenteed for women. Why should my sister get less just because she is a woman? Completely illogical. But equally illogical is the age old custom of parents being taken care of by their sons only. It does exist even now

It does vary form community to community, from families to families within the same culture.....(I know for a fact tht in a certain community parents have traditionally remained with their daughters...but usually both male and female offsprings inherit equally ...unless the daughter has received a dowry in that case she will not inherit, as the dowry is considered as her inheritance)
I believe that each indiviudal should be free to choose their heirs without laws governing these choices....if I want to leave all my worldy goods to my cat and not to my daughter then I should have the right to do so.


Well frankly I have no idea how one can get rid of the whole dowry issue....and education deosn't seem to have any efect on it..cos the more educated the ppl are the more costly is the dowry

Wonder if an advertising campaign would help...along the lines of:
"Rn't u ashamed of being bought?"

hmmm I thought pre-nus would get rid of the possibility of the groom's family asking for more money after the wedding or during the wedding...(those weird scenes u see in Tamil movies)...oh well never mind

way too complex for my feeble brain....but was wondering abt Sri_gan's comment.....why would one think badly of a groom who refuses to accept dowry?

Blue.

sri_gan
03-21-2004, 03:20 PM
ithu ellam 5, 10 yrs back holds good sri.. ippo ellam yaarum apdi solrathu illa.. its still being used an excuse...

yup... as naughty says, money blinds ethics, vlaues... if the guys let their parents to brainwash them, its cos they want to... mitha visayathula ellam avungaluku vendiya padi nadanthukranga illa.. appo ellam parents'a brainwash panna vidrathu illaye...

i dont think, in india ppl(excluding the cine fld ppl) are misusing this law much... but thanks anai, for the info.. mite be useful oneday... who knows


I didn't tell that as a excuse. Velli vetti illatha vetti vengayam than ithellam pesuvanga.. but if a guys takes a stand he gives a damn to any words. But the stupids don't understand they are hurting with words, Thats what I'm trying to mean.

Innikkum nenga India le yaarukavathu marriage situations kku ponna you might find still.

Avarsa ottam, Chennai Improve aiduchu... but ultimately marriage nu vantha ithelam u can still see.

Personally I don't give a damn, Yaarachum ithamari ennkitta nerula pesunanaga avanga mudichanga nu vachi konga :D.

anainar
03-21-2004, 05:29 PM
Hmmm! Pre Nups :think: :think: Pre nups is essentially for protecting the wealth of the spouses if the other goes on a spending spree or goes bankrupt. It does not talk about dowry( which BTW does not exist in its form as in India ). It is like a status check before marriage and decide how much of that to be kept intact in case there is a breakup. So that is not the solution to dowry.

Also, now women do have rights over the ancestral property. This became a law a couple of years back. So, they are treated equally. But if the wealth is generated by the parents themselves, they have the right to give it to any one. But once it crosses the first parents, it becomes ancestral and every offspring has the same rights over that. That cannot be a ground for dowry. One hearing and the case will be disposed in favour of the girl, if she decides to take the matter to court. And having paid dowry does not dilute the law.

I mean basically people have to know their rights and should not be afraid to take legal recourse if needed. We have a certain belief that going to court is a wrong thing. Our legal system also complicates things. But in general, if people are aware of their rights and dont think twice to take on if their rights are trampled upon, things will fall in place. It is one of the reasons, though I write software, read a lot on law. I never got a chance use it, so far( touchwood ) and I tell my wife also to read about law and her legal rights. And I normally get a reprimanding glance from her, "What in the hell are you talkig about?, why would I want to sue you? ". I tell her about the insurance policies I have in case something happens to me, and she covers her ears, not willing to listen. It is the unwillingness of people to know or learn about law makes them easy targets.

If any one harasses the girl for dowry, one phone call or complaint is enough for the guy's family to be put behind bar. It is a threat that can be used wisely to manage the harassment. No guy would like to end in jail. So this can be used as a potential weapon the neutralise. If used calmly without getting too emotional will work magic.

Otherwise, I dont see any easy solution to this social evil, unless guys stand up and say "No". Which I think is happening now. My only complaint about the dowry law is the unfair treatment meated out to guys, painting them as villain always with prejudice.

Cheers.

anjaligirl
04-19-2004, 04:53 PM
Hey guys, I just though I should mention my cousins wedding cuz I was so proud of him. He refused dowry, and him and his girlfriend, both career people, insisted on paying for the entire wedding by themselves without the halep of eith family. I think that if two ppl cant afrod to pay for their own wedding and need a dowry, tehy have no business getting married

Shy
04-19-2004, 06:49 PM
As usual Latea naan entha topic'laiyum :evil: :evil:

Anyway, naughty, women kita yaemathi samiyaar vaeshyam pootu irukara neenga eppadi women misuse panuvaanga solrathu romba thappu :evil: :evil:

First, We got to understand that we need to talk only about in countries like India, where after years and years of dependency women are just now starting to stand in their own feet. So, oru dependent lady'ku to lead a life after divorce, law helps her to get from the guy who had prosmised that he would take care of her. Woman is the one who even after paying tons and tons of dowry and leaving her parents for this guy, need to start from sratch to start a new life if theres some problem between the 2. Appo avaluku law help panrathula enna irukku.

Women misusing it. Indian law'la women misuse pana 10 loopholes iruntha, oru guy misuse pana 20 loopholes irukku. Indian law is not written by a dictator with strict guidelines. So loopholes irrespective of who is facing iruka thaan saeiyum. If the individual is a greedy creature, it will try to sutritify as much as it can, not gender specific.

We cant blame the LAW. A situation, when a desperate women with no binds anywhere in life when thrown out of a marriage, law is written in such a way it can help her the most. Engae guy eppadi vanthaanga??? Are they dependent on their wives ?? Ellai once outside the marriage, is the world that hard for them to lead???

Shy

dinesh
04-19-2004, 07:10 PM
I think you have missed the point altogether here. Anainar was bemoaning the fact that the law does not need any kind of proof to put someone in to count the kambi, using the "dowry abuse" law or whatever it is called. This means a woman X who holds a grudge against her husband can walk into a police station and activate the process. According to anainar, you the police can directly arrest and prosecute you without any other evidence.

This, obviously, is a very dangerous situation. And is against the very basic principle of the law, that it should make sure no innocent person should be punished etc. There are obviously lots of loopholes in the law, but none as glaringly obvious as this.

The point here is not how somebody will survive after marriage or any other parallel issues. It's more to do with the revenege attitude of this particular law. A woman utilising the law may be desperate, but at the same time, it could be one who is after a divorce and a fat settlement.

There is no question about the problems dowry is causing in our societies. But making use of the law will never be a solution IMO. The main reason being the dowry syndrome is a socio-economic phenomenon which has been around for a long time, and at different points of history had several reasons for the practice. Hence, it should be attacked at the grassroots level, and awareness will be the only long-term solution. You can draw a parallel with the drug abuse problem here, even if the issues are very much unrelated. The best way of reducing that problem is to attack the cause of the start of such practices, instead of passing law after law, which clearly have failed to solve the problem.

Another reason is quite a general one. Positive discrimination never works. Accepted women have been discriminated very badly in the past, but discriminating men for a change, by passing a law, will only create problems to men, but will not solve the problem of the women.



So, oru dependent lady'ku to lead a life after divorce, law helps her to get from the guy who had prosmised that he would take care of her. Woman is the one who even after paying tons and tons of dowry and leaving her parents for this guy, need to start from sratch to start a new life if theres some problem between the 2. Appo avaluku law help panrathula enna irukku.

This has nothing to do with the dowry harassment law. This is more to do with how the settlement is administered after a divorce. Remember, not all divorces happen because of dowry harassment. Indeed, not all divorces are initiated by men too. Dowry harassment law never guarantees the future of any woman. It merely makes sure the husband suffers, whether he is guilty or not.

anainar
04-19-2004, 07:31 PM
I was wondering how come this topic came alive all of a sudden. Now I know because of a late current called :evil: ( Shy, that is your symbol ).


Dowry harassment law never guarantees the future of any woman. It merely makes sure the husband suffers, whether he is guilty or not.

That is the point, nailing right on the head. Dowry harassment law is against fundamental rights. The burden of proof is always on the plaintiff normally, but in this case, the defendant has to prove his innocence. That is atrocious. This is a draconian law for sure. Any girl can take revenge on a guy with this law. Whether that happens or not is a different story. There are many instances where the wife has filed a dowry case only to be proved wrong later. If the husband initiates divorce for cruelty, the first thing wife do is to go file a dowry harassment case. While the husband has to prove to the court that his wife actually committed the cruel acts, wife does not have to prove anything. One statement and the husband has to prove that he did not demand dowry.

It is for this reason, it is always advisible to transact any business with inlaws legally. I might sound paranoid, but this is a world with real people and you never know what happens next moment. If you are borrowing money from inlaws, make sure you write it in a small stamp paper the purpose of loan, and get it signed and keep it safe. Best is donot borrow from them. If you give them some money, keep track of that so that it can be used to prove that you gave them money instead of asking for dowry.

Dowry is a cancer that cannot be removed by law. Like our socialist mindset of 1960s, we thought law can solve every problem of ours. Social problems cannot be solved by law. Women did not have share of the ancestral property earlier. Now they have.So one of the reason for dowry is gone. I dont see any justification for dowry now. It should go.

We are looking for an alliance for our sister and there is no escape from dowry, though I am totally against it and married without any dowry. It hurts when you really cant stand up for what you believe in. I believe most of the families are in similar situation. Unless guys stand up and put their finger up to say no, this wont go.

Cheers

Shy
04-19-2004, 08:18 PM
I think you have missed the point altogether here. Anainar was bemoaning the fact that the law does not need any kind of proof to put someone in to count the kambi, using the "dowry abuse" law or whatever it is called. This means a woman X who holds a grudge against her husband can walk into a police station and activate the process. According to anainar, you the police can directly arrest and prosecute you without any other evidence.

No, dowry case.. evidence ellama u can do nothing, I mean u shud atleast shouw some sort of pyhsical abuse if u dont have anything else to prove. chumma ellam solaatheenga. Woman appadi ellam easya oru husbanda play pana mudiyaathu. She got to plan it ;)

But do u think its that hard for a man who wants out of a marriage or having grudge against her to come out easily??? There are n number of ways for him too. Adulterynu portray panalaam, character sari ellai solalaam, 1000 vishyam irukku..

Athu thaan solraen... if either one of them decides like u saying to bring down the other, they can do it.. its not gender specific :)


This has nothing to do with the dowry harassment law. This is more to do with how the settlement is administered after a divorce. Remember, not all divorces happen because of dowry harassment. Indeed, not all divorces are initiated by men too. Dowry harassment law never guarantees the future of any woman. It merely makes sure the husband suffers, whether he is guilty or not.

:evil: :evil: :evil:

Thats what men think.

What if a husband wants out of a marriage, appavum avan thaan suffer panrana.. No..Just because hes giving some settlement is a suffernu if u feel than it cant be helped. Its you who said will take care of her till death do apart. If u want to leave her in the mid, then u shud take care of her future too !!!.. Ava vitutu poorana, athuku reasons ellam paarthuthaan settlement panuvaanga !!! Romba easya no guy will write an settlement for a big amount !!!

Settlement is not just a big amount as you all say.. It all depends on how many children are there and the amount increases only based on that. chumma grudgekaaga after a year without a kid if a girl walks out, he WONT get half of his fortune, as in west !!!

Shy

Shy
04-19-2004, 08:26 PM
That is the point, nailing right on the head. Dowry harassment law is against fundamental rights. The burden of proof is always on the plaintiff normally, but in this case, the defendant has to prove his innocence. That is atrocious. This is a draconian law for sure. Any girl can take revenge on a guy with this law. Whether that happens or not is a different story.

In a country where Dowry has been out there for more than 100 years, what else do u expect??? Of course if there are 100 geninue dowry abuse are there, may be 1 or 2 may be some woman trying out of greed. But I wont accept that a woman can do this thou, unless with enough evidence.


There are many instances where the wife has filed a dowry case only to be proved wrong later. If the husband initiates divorce for cruelty, the first thing wife do is to go file a dowry harassment case. While the husband has to prove to the court that his wife actually committed the cruel acts, wife does not have to prove anything. One statement and the husband has to prove that he did not demand dowry.

I am say this anianar. One statement that his wife's character is under question, even though she proved it otherwise, it will stick to her for life.... What u say for this. Dowry 1000 paeru vaanguraanga, 1000 women and her family are suffering.. 2, 3 paeru yaemathuraanga.. u cant blame law for that... Prosecutors/defendant lawyers/judge whoever it is should be intelli enough to disect and find out the truth..


We are looking for an alliance for our sister and there is no escape from dowry, though I am totally against it and married without any dowry. It hurts when you really cant stand up for what you believe in. I believe most of the families are in similar situation. Unless guys stand up and put their finger up to say no, this wont go.

Ithu soneengalae.. ithu correct.. Guyskku ponnu pakkum poothu engae iruku mind.. azhagu, working, status, money eppadi thaanae irukku.. ellam irukatum.. but stop ur thoughts abt money.. If u want money, earn it urself.. appuram entha dowry concept will vanish in air !!!

Shy

anainar
04-19-2004, 08:39 PM
Madame Shy,

Divorce is not easy for a guy too. Adultry or cruelty or desertiong has to proved by the guy if he wants a divorce. Just statements will not do. It has to be substantiated by evidence. And it has to be done by the plaintiff. So if the husband wants divorce on the ground of adultry, he has to prove beyond doubt that his wife indulged in adultry. If he does not court can dismiss the case and deny divorce.


Athu thaan solraen... if either one of them decides like u saying to bring down the other, they can do it.. its not gender specific

The whole problem is here. If the wife lodges a complaint for dowry harassment, first thing the police do is to arrest the husband or who ever is named by the wife and court case is filed. Now it is upto the husband to prove that he did not demand dowry. The burden of proof lies in the defendant.

Our Criminal laws are framed on the basic assumption that, "Unless proved guilty, the defendant is innocent". The burden of proving lies in the prosecution. If the defendant proves that whatever evidence presented by prosection is false, he is not guilty. In case of dowry law, it is the reverse and against men specifically. There is gender bias for sure.

The alimony scene in India is not that great I would say. One thing is women are not very aware of the law. If the husband defaults in monthly payment, it amounts to contempt of court and one petition is enough to bring him to book without any further hearing. It is a direct violation of court order. And, yes, it does increase with the number of children.

But what is not clear in the law is what kind of lifestyle the wife might want to live. For e.g wife might be from a lower middleclass family making a living out of Re.5000/month but the husband might be making 1.0 lac/month. In this case, if she lives with her husband, her life style will be totally different. I dont know whether the court will make alimony payments to give he such a life or gurantee her a standard she had before marriage.

But Dowry law is draconian and needs repeal or amendments for sure.

Cheers

dinesh
04-19-2004, 09:04 PM
No, Shy. You are still missing the point. No one's talking about divorce here. We are talking about the dowry harassment law. Whether it is right or not. I don't really care how a guy chooses to walk out of a marriage. If he walks out let it be so. But please note the wife would not have a criminal charge hanging over her head. If the wife uses the dowry harassment law, then the guy is a criminal.
We are not talking about the dowry harassment law used as a tool for divorce. It can be, but it is not essential. A woman can file a dowry harassment case for whatever reason.



No, dowry case.. evidence ellama u can do nothing, I mean u shud atleast shouw some sort of pyhsical abuse if u dont have anything else to prove. chumma ellam solaatheenga. Woman appadi ellam easya oru husbanda play pana mudiyaathu. She got to plan it

No, you don't really need one. That is the entire point. Remember the case in TN where some girl phoned the police on the eve of her marriage, and said the M-I-L asks for an extra "sombhu" or something. Police immediately arrested the guy and his mother. I don't reall care about whether he was convicted or not, but he is ruined after that episode. How can you go into your workplace after you are released? Can you see the difference here in the law? If the police want to arrest somebody for a murder or something they have to give some sort of evidence to the magistrate to obtain a warrant. But, here you don't need that. The complaint itself is enough. Don't you think there is something seriously wrong here?



But do u think its that hard for a man who wants out of a marriage or having grudge against her to come out easily??? There are n number of ways for him too. Adulterynu portray panalaam, character sari ellai solalaam, 1000 vishyam irukku..

Nobody is talking about divorce here. And even if we did, there is a crucial difference. Whatever men can do, ie portraying as an adulterer etc., can be done by women too. So there is nothing new there.



What if a husband wants out of a marriage, appavum avan thaan suffer panrana.. No..Just because hes giving some settlement is a suffernu if u feel than it cant be helped. Its you who said will take care of her till death do apart. If u want to leave her in the mid, then u shud take care of her future too !!!.. Ava vitutu poorana, athuku reasons ellam paarthuthaan settlement panuvaanga !!! Romba easya no guy will write an settlement for a big amount !!!

Well, that's a problem with a the Indian constitution then. For that matter most of the democratic constitutions are in the wrong then. Because in your opinion divorce will always be bad for women. Maybe you should advocate for all the constitution to be re-written as divorce is illegal. Then all the problems of women will be solved, 'cos no divorce no problems.

Before you go on elaborating this point, please note that not all divorces are done to satisfy the whims of the husband or just because the husband can be happy with another woman. Some divorces happen because the pair is not compatible, you know.



Settlement is not just a big amount as you all say.. It all depends on how many children are there and the amount increases only based on that. chumma grudgekaaga after a year without a kid if a girl walks out, he WONT get half of his fortune, as in west !!!

Why should she? Marriage is not a "Care agreement". If the couple split, then they should look after themselves. Why should a man support a person with whom he has no relationship under law?



In a country where Dowry has been out there for more than 100 years, what else do u expect???

See, your attitude is more towards taking revenge. Do you really think by punishing men, the dowry problem will be eradicated? It is like arguing that heavy jail sentences for drug addicts will reduce the drug problem. Of course, it wouldn't, as we are seeing every day.



Of course if there are 100 geninue dowry abuse are there, may be 1 or 2 may be some woman trying out of greed. But I wont accept that a woman can do this thou, unless with enough evidence.

You should stop believing that women are the total figures of righteousness, and men are all swindlers. Not all women are good and not all men are bad. The point is, this law leaves serious space for exploitation. And no way you can give a character certificate to every single woman out there. It is nice to think that every woman is a docile, gentle being, but you know that is not true.



Dowry 1000 paeru vaanguraanga, 1000 women and her family are suffering.. 2, 3 paeru yaemathuraanga.. u cant blame law for that...

Is there any proof for this statistic. Even if it is true, you can't expect the pattern to continue in the future. You can't simply expect 997 out of 1000 women are the perfect picture of everything good. I'm not being biased here, but just being practical. Even if it is the men we are talking about it will be the same. I wouldn't agree 997 out of 1000 men would be the perfect citizens.



Prosecutors/defendant lawyers/judge whoever it is should be intelli enough to disect and find out the truth..

Well, their hands are tied by the law. It gives an unacceptable credence to the statement of the accuser.

Dowry is a social problem. Unless every single person is made aware of the problem, and independently decides not to be part of the practice, no law will ever correct the problem. We are increasingly seeing that happening within our communities in the west, and as anainar explained with more and more freedom gained by women in the society, the practice will eventually disappear (the reason being women will not need to be dependent on anybody. If they want to marry they'll marry, and marry the person they like. They will have both the social and economical freedom to do so)

Also the point which should be noted here is, this entire problem of dowry, is the product of the stupid beliefs in our societies, that women should marry on time and have kids etc. If the society stops bothering about them and let them do whatever they want, we would see an increasing number of career minded women, who will by default be independent, and since they won't have the pressures to get married by 25, they can pick their partner at their leisure. and if they don't want to get married, they can be as independent as they like, as every human being should be.

anainar
04-19-2004, 09:42 PM
Shy,

The basic problem is the horrendous nature of the law. In Tamilnadu, dowry is a non bailable offence. One complaint from the girl/her parents or even family is enough and the husband and others involved could be charge sheeted and arrested without bail. How can a guy go back to his work? How can his family come back to normalcy, after the guy proves that they did not ask for dowry? He would have spent his time in jail by then and lost his career and life. Even arrest for a murder requires a FIR and some sort of evidence and a warrant for arrest. How is dowry more heinous than murder?

There is an instance in Chennai of a would be girl going to police for dowry harassment even before marriage and the police arrested the guy religeously. Tell me what can happen to the guy? Their family denies that allegation, but they also have to prove that they did not demand dowry. How can that be proved? There is a CAW Cell ( Crime Against Women ) in Chandigar. Their statistics goes like this. The number of dowry cases registered with them has gone up three times in the last year compared to 1995. Of these they agree that more than 50% is fabricated, especially the ones which come under the non bailable section The intention was to put the husband behind the bar.

It is also heartening to know the Chennai High Court Judge has made suggestion that the crime should be bailable atleast. There have been instances where the FIR included school going children who were also arrested. This happened in Delhi after which the Judge got upset and asked the Police to use discretion before arresting.

There are helplines in Chennai and Bangalore to help such victims. Misuse is becoming a serious issue now with more and more such cases being filed. Dowry is wrong, but so is this draconian Anti Dowry Law. Unless there is evidence of physical abuse, it should not be made cognizable or criminal. It should be consdered a case of marital disharmony and sent for counselling first, before arresting the husband.

Every married man lives in eternal fear that he can land up in jail, for no offence of him. We can say, we honor marriage, women wont do, but women are also human beings and can change or be changed by circumstances to take revenge for differences. Law should not allow that.

Cheers

anjaligirl
04-23-2004, 03:02 AM
Hm if this is such a big problem in India, why havent ther ebeen any steps to close that loophole? I mean from the mens side. Put it through the legislature and get it changed. It might be a long process but it is better than innocent men going to jail.

anainar
04-23-2004, 03:57 AM
Anjaligirl,

Do you think passing a legislation is an easy job in India? That too something that can be said to be against women? There have been huge outcry but it all fell in deaf ears of the parliamentarians. They are busy enacting even more draconian laws like POTA. It is a bane that our legal system is so slow in responding to changes. Even after highcourt judge passing strictures and observations against misuse, it is not even taken up for amendment in our parliament.

Cheers