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Shy
05-16-2004, 06:07 PM
Note to Madhu and Others: Who said that people are unneccasarily fussing about sonia becoming a PM, please take some time and read this. A big one but a very worthy topic !!!
Gurumurthy had said it all !!!

By S Gurumurthy

It is certainly not a matter of pride to have Sonia as the Prime Minister. You cannot be electing a person as Prime Minister and not feel proud of having elected her. When someone wants to lead this country, it must be a matter of pride for its people to have that person as their leader. Imagine the depths to which this issue has descended.

"What is wrong if she is the Prime Minister," is an argument that comes not from the ordinary people of India, but from the educated Indian. This comes from the Chidambarams and from the Rajdeeep Sardesais of this country; this comes from editorial writers sitting in cities. So let us analyse this issue with all its implications for a country like India, which has an unbroken civilisational continuity.

India is indeed a civilisation behind the facade of a nation. It is now facing the might of the nation-state, which has evolved in the west. The nation-state mechanism in the west is basically aggressive, violent, conquering, invasive, dominating, imperialistic. It is a concept which the Indian mind cannot internalise, understand, or exhibit in its attitude. So, now we are conceding that foreigners can become prime ministers and presidents of India, provided they hold a citizenship certificate.

Odious comparisons are being made by a few who are bent on justifying Sonia as the prime minister. Look at Sister Nivedita, they say. She rebelled against the British for India. And her name was Margaret. Swami Vivekananda called her Nivedita because she had surrendered herself to this country. Where then is the comparison?

Compare Nivedita with Sonia Maino. She came to India marrying a very good-looking man. When she came to India in 1968, she was wedded to an Indian who was the son of that country's Prime Minister.

People say it is our tradition that when a woman enters her husband's home, she becomes part of that family, and so Sonia too is an Indian. It is a sentimental attitude. Look at the acts. Sonia did not apply for Indian citizenship in 1968 when she married Rajiv and came to India. It is what any good Indian wife would have done.

She filled an application in 1968 for permission to stay as a foreigner in India for five years. She said, "I am married, I am married into theIndian Prime Minister but I would still like to remain a foreigner." So she was given a certificate in 1968 to reside in India as a foreigner for five years. In 1973, after the first five-year period expired, she again applied for the permit to stay on in India for another five years as a foreigner. And this is the person who is going to live and die for us. My friend Cho Ramaswamy told me not to believe what she says, There is not only a complete divorce between what she says and what she does; there is also a clue that she will do precisely the opposite of what she says. I will come to it later; there are instances and instances.
So, she again applied for a foreigner's permit. You know why? Between 1968 and 1973, there were indications of war with Pakistan over East Pakistan. And sure enough there was the Bangladesh war. During that conflict, when all commercial pilots were asked to forego their leave and enter service, she asked Rajiv to go on long leave. He was given special permission and they left the country. Throughout the period of the war, they were in Rome. Why? Because the American Seventh Fleet was moving towards India, and Sonia Gandhi probably had serious doubts about India's survival!

So she deserted the country with her husband. She returned only after peace was restored, and after India had won the war because of Indira Gandhi. This is where the stark contrast between Sonia Gandhi and Atal Bihari Vajpayee is most glaring. Look at their conduct after the two wars.

After the creation of Bangladesh in 1971, Vajpayee, who was the Leader of the Opposition, stood up in Parliament and congratulated Indira Gandhi for her courage and vision and praised her as Durga. He was a patriot. At that important moment, he never thought that acknowledging the achievement of his political adversary will cost him votes. Yes, he and his party lost votes in both Partiament and Assembly polls, but not because Vajpayee stood tall in his praise oflndira Gandi. After the Kargil war, Sonia Gandhi told the NDA Government, "Please do not ask for any credit." This is meanness, pettiness, smallness, and foreignmindedness.

Sonia Gandhi played politics even with the self-esteem of this country by choosing the wrong moment to demand an explanation from the government, to raise issues of corruption in defence deals. Her praise of our armed forces came after she realised that the people of this country were not taking her criticism very well. That she was a foreigner and had no business asking for explanations came across very clearly. Every intelligent lndian knew there were problems, including corruption associated with some sections of the army and that it was these problems that resulted in the Kargil invasion.

Should it be used as an occasion to expose a small number of people and defame the entire army in the process? The army today represents the core of Indian nationalism. This was the occasion for the nation to rise above everything and pat the army for its heroism, courage and sacrifice.
But only a nationalist will think like this. However, Sonia Gandhi, who was after votes and political power, could not think like this. Now let us come to the period between 1973-1978. In 1977, when Indira Gandhi was defeated, Sonia sensed the mood of the nation, took refuge in the Italian Embassy and refused to come out of it. She said she was going back to Italy. Sanjay Gandhi had to go and plead with her to return.

Is this is the person who is going to live and die for India? To live in India is very different from living for India. And to live in India in such glory, with such protection and resources, is very different from dying for India. Nationalism will not come by merely wearing saris. It is as much a fancy dress today as any other dress can be. But some Indians are very happy to see Sonia in a sari, and regard her stay in India as their good fortune. Why? I am going to say something which many of you may not like.

Some of you may even say I am a racist. I was discussing this issue with Cho Ramaswamy. He told me something he may not write but I will share this with you. Cho said, and I quote, "If Sonia Gandhi had been black, had been a person of African origin, this problem would never have arisen."

Do you understand what this means, unpalatable though it may be to some of you? It is this fascination for the white skin and it is we, the English educated Indians, who are responsible for this. Tamil patriot and poet Bharathi said, " Ayiram undingu jathi, enil anniyar vanthu pugal enna neethi. " Yes, we may have hundreds of castes but that is no reason for an alien to fish in our troubled waters and play arbiter here. That is what Tilak mean by Swaraj first. We may fight among ourselves, we may even kill each other, but we don't want a foreign arbiter.

I know of several political leaders saying that the Indian English Press will stand against us. Only because the Indian English Press is bound to take a hostile attitude towards those who consider Sonia as a foreigner and a reluctant citizen, many political parties are unwilling to make this a national issue. This is the terrorising influence that the English educated Indian intellectuals have on the political class. Another argument is that this is not an issue in the rural areas. If you do not make it an issue, how will it become an issue there?
The Emergency was imposed in India. The national TV, the Press, everything was controlled by the government. The cities revolted against the Emergency; in six months it spread and percolated, and then the villages revolted, too. Ideas always percolate, but if they are edited at the top, the nation remains confused. Never in the history of the world has a foreigner ruled another country except by invasion.

But what is abnormal here is that we are in danger of electing a foreigner to rule this country. Some Indians do not want to be seen as being narrow-minded or less liberal. What is this liberalism? One-sixth of humanity living together is in itself the greatest symbol of liberalism. We are one-sixth of humanity and we live together and live well together.

Let us now recap what Sonia did in 1978, after Indira Gandhi lost the elections in 1977. Sonia again applied to stay on in India as a foreigner. In 1968, 1973, 1978- for three five-year terms - Sonia applied for a resident's permit to stay in India. On April 30, 1983, her third five-year permit expired. By that time it was certain that Rajiv was to become the heir to Indira Gandhi.

And so, even on April 27, three days before the permit expired, she had still not opted for Indian citizenship. She wanted to be a foreigner till the last day the permit allowed her to be so. And this is precisely what Sharad Pawar asked her in the Congress Working Committee (CWC), in May 1999 It all happened suddenly. Pawar described to me how it happened. On that day, the CWC was to discuss the Goa election and Pawar was supposed to present his analysis of the situation in Goa. The lady came with a prepared speech (please note, even in the 20-member working committee, she comes with a prepared speech).

She began reading her speech. Everybody was surprised at what she had to say. She said that the Sangh Parivar, against which her mother- in-law carried on a campaign to finish communalism, against whom her husband did this and that, had now decided to destroy her.
"They are branding me a foreigner. I will fight them to the last drop of my blood. But, I don't want this issue to drag on till the elections. I want it decided today because if it is decided now, we can fight it out at the time of the election, and it will be no issue at all. So, I want to know first whether any of you have any objection to my becoming the Prime Minister,"she said.

All these fellows remained silent. And then Madhav Rao Scindia spoke, "Madam, you do not have to fight the Sangh Parivar propaganda, I will fight it. This is not your battle, this is my battle:' This set the tone for the rest of the discussion and soon most members began to ask, who are these RSS people to dub Sonia a foreigner?

Soon it was Sangma's turn to speak. Sangma said, "Madam, I have very different views on this issue. I don't know anything about you; There are people who are saying that for 17 years you lived as a foreigner in India. If the voters ask me, how will I explain? Please tell me why you did not opt for Indian citizenship in 1968? I cannot convince the people of my own State, my own constituency on this." And then it was Pawar's turn.

He told me he was sitting immediately to her right. He was the last to speak. He was the first one to organise a public meeting for her, a massive rally in Maharastra. He told Sonia, and I quote, "In that rally, you said I am an ordinary humble Congress worker. You said I don't want any position, I don't want power, and I am associated with the Congress family. You also said I don't even want to become a Congress member.

I can't bear to see a party with which my mother-in-law, her father, her grandfather, and my husband were all associated, decaying like this. So, I want to strengthen this party. This is what you said on that day." Then Pawar told the rally, "If she is willing to do such a generous job for a nationalist party, there should be no objection. She does not want to be the president of the party, she does not want to be in any position and she doesn't want to be an MP."
Pawar told me that he had recounted the statements made at that rally to BaI Thackeray in defence of Sonia Gandhi. "But the day she ran to the President of India and told him that she had the support of 272 MPs to become the Prime Minister of India, which was a lie, all of us changed and I changed, too;" Pawar told me.

Sonia said she was not interested in politics, and that she would never enter politics. She said she would not become a Congress member but will only help the party as a person belonging to the Congress fami1y. She said and I quote, "I am just a four anna member, I will not occupy any position." But what happened thereafter? She physically threw out Sitaram Kesri from the office. The poor fellow was in the toilet. His chair was empty. And do you know what happened? The Congress goons bolted the toilet door from outside and made Sonia occupy' his chair, The elderly man wept. This is how she became the president of the Congress Party.

In the same way the western armies in the past invaded other civilisations and seized power, she seized power in a 'coup d'toilette'. This is the disconnect between her word and her action. Her conduct was the very reverse of her profession. she said she had no ambition to be the Prime Minister. But who ran from pillar to post to bring down the Vajpayee government?

Again, when the media probed her about the money paid by Bofors to her friend Quattrocchi, she said, "Yes, the CBI is saying he is a suspect, but they have not produced any papers; and unless you produce papers to prove that somebody is guilty, you cannot say he is guilty."

But what is the truth about Quattrocchi ? In the Bofors deal, the quality of the gun was not the issue. It was always rated as a good gun, but there was a better gun called Sofma. In 17 meetings, the negotiating committee kept the Sofma gun ahead of the Bofors gun from 1984 June to early February 1986. For two years, in 17 meetings, the army brass involved in the decision making had preferred Sofma to Bofors. But everything changed on February 17 that year. Please mark the dates. The competition among arms manufacturers to sell guns to India was on from 1980.
On November 15, 1985, a company called AE Services entered into an agreement with Bofors. It said, "Gentlemen, I will get you the Government of India order for Bofors guns. And I will get this order by March 31, 1986. And if I get it by March 31, you will give me three per cent commission, which is $36.5 million or Rs 160 crore at the current rates of exchange. So, if I get you this order by March 31, you will give me this commission and if I don't get it you need not give me anything. You owe no obligation to me."

Who can enter into this kind of a contract except the person who can get it? Fina11y, the cat was out of the bag. The person who signed the contract filed an affidavit in the Swiss Court saying it was Quattrocchi who advised him to enter into this contract.

The sequence was as fo11ows: On February 17, 1986, the Bofors gun was nowhere in the picture. However, on March 15 and 16, Rajiv told the Swedish Government ( on a State visit to Sweden) that he will give Sweden the order for supply of Bofors guns. On March 17, the negotiating committee cleared the deal in 48 hours. Eleven officials and Rajiv Gandhi signed the deal and on March 21, 1986, 10 days ahead of the deadline to which Quattrocchi had committed himself, the contract was signed.

The bribe agreement between this shady company AE Services, and Bofors said: "Bofors will pay AE Services proportionate to the amount the Government of India pays to Bofors." The Government of India paid 20 per cent of the money to Bofors and exactly three per cent of 20 per cent was released in September 1986 to AE Services.

Within 13 days, that money was transferred to an investment company and two years later, after The Hindu and The Indian Express came out with exposes on the deal, with documents as proof, it was transferred to another company and the Swiss Police unearthed the fact that the persons behind all the three companies into which these monies had gone was Quattrocchi and his wife.

Only they had the authority to sign the secret accounts. When this was found out and the bank documents were being transmitted, Quattrocchi filed an appeal against the transmission of documents in the Swiss Court but the court said he was a dishonest man and overruled the objection saying Quattrocchi was involved in the deal. He has taken bribes and he is related to the Indian administration at the highest level, the Swiss Court said.
The Swiss Court order came in July 1993 when Narasimha Rao was the Prime Minister and the Interpol told the Government of India that Quattrocchi 's appeal in the Swiss Court had been dismissed, which meant "Arrest him." The powers-that-be gave Quattrocchi one week's time to escape. Just like Win Chadha has been allowed to escape an year earlier. And this man too flew out of India. When the CBI raided his home and found his diary notes,. these revealed Quattrocchi had been having dinner meetings with Rajiv and Sonia Gandhi. They found photographs and letters that had been exchanged, and everything was seized. Thereafter, the Delhi High Court issued an arrest warrant against Quattrocchi. He appealed to the Interpol which was dismissed.

The Delhi High Court also dismissed it saying his presence was needed and he had to be arrested. These are all judicial orders printed, published, and available in the public domain. Thereafter the matter went to the Supreme Court. Quattrocchi told the Supreme Court through his advocates that he would come and present himself, and that he should not be arrested. The Supreme Court said, since the man says he will come and present himself and be available for interrogation, why should he be arrested?

However, Quattrocchi defied the orders of the Supreme Court and did not turn up. He filed an affidavit in the Swiss Court saying that India was a brute nation and he cannot get justice in the judicial system of India. And Sonia Gandhi is defending this fellow Italian. It is, therefore, a blatant lie to say there are no documents to prove Quattrocchi's guilt.

It is also a lie that Sonia did not know his plans to abscond from the country. It is impossible that somebody who resided in Delhi for 20 years, who shared weekly evenings with Rajiv and Sonia, would have suddenly left Delhi , without even telephoning to her. She must have been privy to all these things and she has the audacity to ask where is the proof?

So, truth has nothing to do with Sonia Gandhi. There is an absolute disconnect between her words and deeds. Now the issue is whether Sonia in politics is a national shame.

Whether it is a national shame or not, it is certainly a danger to national security. Why do we have rules in the army which prohibit a foreigner, a foreign born person, even though he is a citizen, from occupying certain high-ranking offices in the army? Why do we say that our IPS officers should not be of foreign origin? Why do we say that our IPS officers cannot marry foreigners? Now, herein comes the idea of the modern nation-state.

A modern nation-state has a built-in insecurity and that is the reason why it has to secure itself. But can the Prime Minister have a foreign wife? Can the Prime Minister's son have a foreign wife? Sitting in the Prime Minister's Office, in the Prime Minister's home, a foreign wife for 15 years; who ran away with her husband when the nation was at war, breaching the discipline of commercial pilots is now a well, established fact. In India, the MLAs, MPs, and ministers are not subject to any rule or discipline. Even today whether an MLA or MP is a public servant is a matter that is being debated in courts.

So, can an MP have a foreign wife.? Can a minister have a foreign wife? This distortion has crept into the system. And what are the consequences of foreigners penetrating our polity?

When George Fernandes spoke on this issue on the national television, it was chilling. He spoke of a particular file whlch contained all the secrets of the government. Where are the nuclear weapons, where are the missiles, who can press the button, which missile points in which direction, who are our spy links in different countries? This single file contains all this information.

That file is not handled by anybody other than the Prime Minister of India. If Vajpayee ceases to be the Prime Minister and Sonia becomes the Prime Minister, he will have to hand over this file to her. It will have every nationa1 security secret. If it falls into wrong hands, it will strip India naked before inimical forces.

`Can we afford to hand over these secrets to her?` Fernandes said even the Defence Minister cannot do anything; he cannot look at that file. Even the services chiefs know only their part of the secret. The combined, collective national secret is in the hands of one man that will be handed over to this foreigner, should she achieve her political ambition.

Whether somebody can speak tolerable Hindi or not is not the issue; it is far more serious. It goes to the root of the existence of the nation, its security and its survival. Sonia's loyalty to India will always be in doubt. If there is even a millionth of a chance that her loyalty to, this country is in question, it should be enough to disqualify her from prime ministership. The issue is not whether Sonia will succeed in becoming the Prime Minister, but the very idea that somebody like her can nurse such an ambition.

If the intellectuals of India, whose duty it is to preserve the mind of India have failed, I am certain that at least the ordinary people of India will succeed in protecting national interest as they did in 1977.

Here are the excerpts from the book `Issue of foreign origin: Sonia under scrutiny` - published by the India First Foundation. For copies of the book write to : India First Foundation , 12 E, Feroz Shah Road, New Delhi. Price : Rs 100.

Shy

seny
05-16-2004, 06:35 PM
:clap: :clap: :clap: Good work Shy... I have been thinking what is going to our fate..:think::think:

God Save India... :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:


Seny

king_143
05-16-2004, 07:36 PM
Rome ruling India, Any way she is the first non-Hindu prime minister of India. Thats the only thing I am proud of.

madhu_aish1
05-16-2004, 08:27 PM
Shy,

I had read each and every word of this article. The article has been written in the most convincing way . Every author has his own style of writing and he has carefullly pulled out the excerpts which dent sonia gandhi and the truth of the personal excerpts are highly questionable. I neither cant believe them nor accept them. I am not in the right position to do it.

The above article is a complete description of personal life being knotted with her rising to the PM position but never commented the political dimensions of them ...

We are pre-assuming only the foreigner's would divulge the military secrets and other confidential assets. IS it OK if a Indian Born swadeshi , war hero , blah blah blah to leak out the our national secrets. Why do we have a mind set like this . What happened to tehelka episode. People have been made to forget the episode and are ready to go ahead . We are getting sick day by day by adjusting to a society of corruption . Unethical and illegal process have imbibed within us and we dont realise them .

All i am saying vote for a person who does the job stated for him/her and giving a damn to what he/she his ... We have elected her as the Prime Minister and face the consequences ... We dont our future , but one thing for sure .. people are the winners of democracy if not today .. tommorow ... :D :D :D :D

ALL ABOVE COMMENTS WERE MADE BASED ON PURELY PESRSONAL THOUGHTS AND RATIONALITY. IT HAS NO RELATIOSHIP WITH FACTS ANd TRUTHS BEHIND THE HISTROY OF THE ABOVE QUOTED PERSON IN THE ARTICLE.

PS: Akka that was a nice article to read.. only to read. Words were picked to stimulate the passions of people , good Writer ... but we should realise that words shouldnt be the deciding factor but actions ... :D :D

PS ku PS : my name in the top of the article ..whaaa... :P :P :P :oops: :oops:

seny
05-16-2004, 08:41 PM
Madhu I accept your opinion that the article had been written in the most convincing way with the right words.. But are we to trust a woman who seeked politcal asylum for her children after the death of Rajiv? Are we to trust someone like that coming back as the leader of the nation?:think:

Seny

dinesh
05-16-2004, 09:26 PM
I have one question though. The article is talking about the national secrets falling into wrong hands, but even if Sonia is not elected as the prime minister, surely the person who's gonna be appointed by Congress is going to be just a puppet PM, and if sonia asks hims, say, what's in that file he's going to tell her that a la our dear Panneer and JJ.

So, what will happen now. Is the way ahead is by banning foreign nationals becoming heads of political parties? The writer asks questions about family members being foreign nationals, and conveniently side steps the issue by saying only the PM will know the secrets. Isn't there even a small amount of chance this foreign wife will leak the secrets? So, what do we do now? Do we require all politicians to divorce their foreign spouses immediately after they take office in a government?

I'm not commenting on the current political situation, as I don't know much of this, and I'm unable to assert whether the allegations and claims in the above artice is true, but it will suffice to say, there can always be conspiracy theories with vivid imagination concocted. but, we have to be careful on what we accept and what we reject.

And, as Madhu asked, does being a foriegner immediately imply that person will be a traitor, and being a local imply that person is a patriot? Have we not seen enough examples of people who have been willing to be treacherous against their own country? According to this article then every single one of the people should be suspected. Is there a patriotism test for politicians before they stand elections? How can you be sure such a person will be faithful after election? I'm sure the same arguments would have been written if a muslim had become the PM. Then the article would have been written with a racial tinge saying how long will it be before this person sells us to Pakistan.

I'm not implying here that Sonia will be the perfect PM or giving a character certificate to her, but people should realize that governance is a complicated business. And we should also know that not all government decisions are made by the head of state. There are appropriate bodies which recommend certain matters and the PM merely authorizes them. We should remember the civil machinery is not going to change overnight because of the change of government. That will remain more or less the same with the same policies.

The question of defence secrets is a complex one too. As, I said earlier even nationals cannot be trusted with it, as there might be a black sheep. So, obviuosly there will be safety procedures for each and every action, and I'm sure that the PM cannot do much alone, in a large scale in a limited time. Wars, or serious attacks don't happen overnight, and there will be intelligence officials assigned to the sections who can take action with minimal delay. It's not a hopeless situation as the writer above tries to portray.

There is a chance of something going really wrong by Sonia becoming PM, but that is the case with anyone local or foreigner.



Some of you may even say I am a racist. I was discussing this issue with Cho Ramaswamy. He told me something he may not write but I will share this with you. Cho said, and I quote, "If Sonia Gandhi had been black, had been a person of African origin, this problem would never have arisen."

Do you understand what this means, unpalatable though it may be to some of you? It is this fascination for the white skin and it is we, the English educated Indians, who are responsible for this. Tamil patriot and poet Bharathi said, " Ayiram undingu jathi, enil anniyar vanthu pugal enna neethi. " Yes, we may have hundreds of castes but that is no reason for an alien to fish in our troubled waters and play arbiter here. That is what Tilak mean by Swaraj first. We may fight among ourselves, we may even kill each other, but we don't want a foreign arbiter.

Nothing could be more away from the truth. This was the attitude of Europe throught modern times. And because of that they fought several wars over the time. And in order to prevent that hapening the EU was formed. Decisions taken by the EU are applicable to all members of the EU. No-one quarrels because the law was made by a Belgian chap or a Spanish national. And with added co-operation the nations are benefitting.

The notion of a state is becoming an obsolete one. And the EU is the first step of that. Already we see a very related structure in the US too. What actually is a country? Who defined the geographics of it? How can it be defined? There are no concrete answers for this. All the countries we see in the atlas now were formed by some accidential happening over time. It'll change over time too. So, how can you define nationalism over a long period of time? Take a look at India a 150 years back. Was there an enimity towards Pakistanis? There wasn't a nation called Pakistan then, and there ws no enimity. It might be the case sometime in the future where there won't be any enimity either.

So, what is nationalism? What kind of a nation is there for you to be nationalistic? The kind of feeling you have today won't be there tomorrow. If, there is a piece of land which suddenly belongs to India, say, tomorrow, will your feeling of nationalism be re-defined to accept the people, the culture and the resources of the piece of land? So, will that mean the notion you were following as nationalism till today was wrong? And does that in turn mean you were traitors, because you weren't following the correct nationalistic principle?

There are detailed studies in this subject, and there are very interesting ideas in it too. I'm sorry to have hijacked the discussion, but just wanted to share some thoughts. But, one thing is sure, there will one day be a country called the world, and people will stop having all these problems like wars and that will ultimately be the true nationalism.

madhu_aish1
05-17-2004, 12:12 AM
Kind Information -

Debates about politics, race and religion are not allowed in geetham forums.

http://geetham.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3424 this is what rules says. Lets only share information than debating polictics if the rule is still enforced.

Shy
05-17-2004, 12:13 AM
Madhu,

Yes, it may be a convincing article, but its facts. Very good article by Gurumurthy, isn't it. Its not that about personal life.. its about the person who is to rule our country for the next 5 years. its the passsion she had for italy versus the passion she had for india. Gurumurthy cant be anymore clearer, Intha mathiri irukara article all over india ella languagela poota thaan entha makkalukku puriyum what they need to think before they cast their votenu. Democracy'nra perula.. entha nation mela oru patrae ellatha oruthikku position tharathu maaga kevalam. This person has no idea about this country. There is a lot of difference between Living IN India and Living FOR India. Naan solraen, ok pa BJP vendaam, athu inclined to one sidenu solreenga ok... But sucha old party like congress couldnt they find someone else other than sonia maino??? Oru example solraen, ennoda husband sonaar, In Peru oru japanese born PM was elected, he messed up the country... he was thrown away in the next election, sari evan pana spy velai ant other therutu thanathuku trial vaikalaamnu evanai arrest pana try panina, he ran to japan and took asylum. Eppo peru govt kaenchitu irukaanga japan govtkita avanai extradite pana solli. But hes enjoying is life there.. Already we saw one such thing happening in this world. why is that we are adamant to have our own experinces sollu??? Foreigners ellam kuudaathu thaan. u know rahul has a colombian GF. Just because these people have some fame and a family name, chumma udanae naan MP, PMnu varathu eppadi okaagum?? this is a hiogh level post and that person is going to represent us in this world. Worlds largest populated country namba, are we that scarce for an Indian???

Shy

dinesh
05-17-2004, 12:32 AM
Kind Information -

Debates about politics, race and religion are not allowed in geetham forums.

http://geetham.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3424 this is what rules says. Lets only share information than debating polictics if the rule is still enforced.

Maybe you should've posted this message before your other post. :think:

madhu_aish1
05-17-2004, 01:03 AM
sorry dude ... some one whipped me with this rules . only then i realised such a rule existed ....

sorry fellas for my ignorance

RaasuKutty
05-17-2004, 01:20 AM
Hey guyz

There can always be exceptions.. and even I read in one other post that there are some relaxations :D :D :D :D

Till the time, posts & thoughts are contructive and does not cross the limits, these shud be fine right :think: :think: :think: ..

Its my own feeling...

vasan
05-17-2004, 03:32 AM
I beg to differ !

Mr. Gurumurthy's article is about as convincing as any news item from Fox TV. What is this deal about security information leaking to other countries? She was the wife of a PM - and did you hear then, that she did leak information? The only thing that the article proves is the bias of the author. But hey, I have read Mr. Gurumurthy's articles for several years now - after all he is a sort of regular columnist, and have never been convinced with his analysis or the 'impartiality' of his journalistic efforts.

Mrs. Gandhi is NOT in politics for the FIRST time. She has been in the politics for several years now. Has done a reasonable job of uniting a party that went to shambles - and inspite of vigorous campaiging from opposition parties - based on inuendos' and direct calling of names - has managed to win the trust of the people enough to win these many votes. What Mr. Gurumurthy must realize is that we still live in democracy and peoples voice is what finally counts.

National disaster? I don't really see how a person, who is constitutionally elected - leader of a party - could be called a disaster. Unless ofcourse, Indian Constitution, democracy and the election procedure are all disasters - or the several millions who have voted for her and her party as complete fools and idiots! I choose not to.

Vasan

RaasuKutty
05-17-2004, 04:26 AM
As most editorials, this one is also biased... But, I wasn't able to digest that she lived in India for 15 years as foreigner.... Height of it was that she took refuge in Italian Embassy... but still, more ppl voted for her (or for the party that she presides).. which means more ppl have thought her as a National Glory than a disaster... (thou I am not 1 in them)...

But for sure, for any act that the govt is going to support European Union, an integrity issue will be raised.. If pizzas become hot or if Fiat produces good cars or if Armanis make a gala opening.. or if India signs the galileo project (which India is about to sign).. for all these there are going to be integrity issues... its not going to be an easy task...

thiru_kk
05-17-2004, 07:33 AM
This is a biased article! Sonia was the opposition party leader while BJP was in power. No one raised anything at that time. She performed her role well, protecting the security and interest of the Nation. Now the BJP camp is spreading all these suspicions. ??

"Rome ruling India" is home made rumor. Any one who marries a woman from other country will accept her as part of family. Family is the basic building block of a country...so why should it be different?

Sonia was invited by the party to become as the leader, to campaign and strengthen its base! Those who invited were born Indians... Where comes the conspiracy here? She brought back congress to power with her performance and hard work! One who throws stones at her now should understand that INC was formed by a foreigner Dr.Annie Besant to fight against the British rule. I dont think anyone raised the foreigner issue at that time. We had Lord. Mountbatten even after Independence to help us out. :ahha: :ahha: Can we say that Indian born citizens won’t sell secrets to other Nations? PM is common to all citizen, what ever religion, race, ideology they follow. Sonia never identified herself with Catholic Church. She is more secular than many other leaders.

Even today people justify the actions of Naredra Modi which is inhuman. The one who torched the train should be punished and condemned and the one who looted, rioted in Gujarat after the Godra incident should be brought under justice for the reason the innocent people were killed.

Naredra Modi is not just the CM of Hindus or RSS, he was a man elected by the people to have the administration of the state. State has no religion or ideology! What priniciple he followed as a ruler? He killed his own people by silencing the administraion. If indian born citizens rule like this...should we support them? And with out any such evidence or proof we spread messages that Sonia can’t be PM just because of her origin?! That’s not what the Indian people expect! They gave a clear verdict to Sonia and congress will form the govt., whether we like it or not everyone will have to accept that... Shy, I am not debating here. It’s just my humble view!

katteri
05-17-2004, 01:24 PM
Super article Shy,
Enna solla....

Namma makkal avangha thalaila manna vari pottu kittangha..One of my friend is a stock brocker. He said today he has to find a way to survive as he ll be in streets in few days..

anainar
05-17-2004, 02:37 PM
Very nice article. I have read this article and many articles of Gurumurthy before. Many of his points does make sense.

About politics not to be discussed in geetham, I am not sure. We dont discuss politics everyday. We discuss economics and policies linked with that which are closely associated with politics. I have had healthy debates with Thiru, Dinesh on economics linked to politics. It is more because of respect for the views rather than contempt that it is being discussed. Geetham should not allow contempt but respect should be welcome. So I would not mind this discussion. Or we can amend the Geetham Constitution a little bit. I am sure I will be able to get 2/3rd majority for amendmentment. :wink: :wink:

First and foremost, saying the people gave mandate to Sonia is absurd. Congress increased its kitty by 30 seats compared to the last election. It does not have even 1/3rd of the total seats. So gloating over the fact that she got the mandate is pointless. It is accepted that the mandate was against the BJP govt but not for Sonia. They never declared their stance before election to consider this as a mandate. It is a sheer diversion of our Parliamentary democracy to suite ones own need.

We elect the MPs and who ever the MPs want as leader are imposed on us. It was not the case till one of the parties always got majority. With a coalition govt,it should be understood that people also look at who can be the PM. Deve Gowda or IK Gujral are all imposed on us because of politicking at the MPs level on which the common man never had a say. That is the system we have.

Vasan,

The arguments are not pointless. It is all signals. If your country is attacked would you flee the country to safety if you are a good citizen? If you are serious about safeguarding your home country? Sonia fled India during that war. To me that is shame. That is a fact before us. We talk so much about Shoaib Akthar saying sick and skiing. And he was taken to task by PCB. It was just a game. Imaging a first family of the country leaving the country in a state of war. Do you feel great about it?

About violation of FERA, Citizenship Act, I know there are leaders who violate such laws. But did any of them become PMs? Can one such instance be directly attributed to Vajpayee? OR Narsimharao? Or Manmohan Singh? Or Pranab Mukherjee? These guys are untainted guys and are fit to be PMs rather than some on who has tainted his/her hands.

The market economy is driven by signals again. What ever prosperity we were getting because of liberalisation will disappear or atleast slow down. The market lost 800 points in a day which is history in the past 130 years. Imagine the common man who has put in some money in the market. It has been the policy of the left. To spread poverty evenly so that every on is equal instead of making people rich. They made it happen in Russia, China and are targetting India now. Bengal and Kerala are the states with least amount of industrial growth iin the recent years. But has it improved lives of comman man? No. Kerala makes its money because of expatriates leaving the state to toil the middlle east. Bengal because of it being such an old state still keeps getting some revenue. Else they both will depend strongly on the central govt.

I am waiting for the alliance to come with their commom minimum program. Hopefully they resolve their diffences behind closed doors instead of taking it to TV stations causing panic among investors.

Cheers

katteri
05-17-2004, 03:50 PM
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/gallery/0185/018508.jpg

Members of ABVP, the students' wing of BJP, during a rally opposing Congress Party President Sonia Gandhi becoming a foreign-born prime minister in Mumbai.


Sushma Swaraj to tonsure her head and wear white sari during swearing in ceremony day

Anyway the latest news is sonia will be swearing as PM on wednesday

gokulan42
05-17-2004, 04:11 PM
The arguments are not pointless. It is all signals. If your country is attacked would you flee the country to safety if you are a good citizen? If you are serious about safeguarding your home country? Sonia fled India during that war. To me that is shame. That is a fact before us. We talk so much about Shoaib Akthar saying sick and skiing. And he was taken to task by PCB. It was just a game. Imaging a first family of the country leaving the country in a state of war. Do you feel great about it?
You have to see them differently. I will quote comments from the 'Mom or Wife' post from Shy or Butterfly or someother matured geethamite. When a gal entered the 'Puhuntha veedu', she wud be more attached to her 'pirantha veedu'. It will take some time to be attached to the 'Pu Veedu'. After some time, she WILL be more attached to 'Pu V' than 'Pi V'. Thats exactly the case with Sonia and its only realistic and practical. When the war took place, she was new to India (3 years) and obviously she dint care about India than her immediate family. Now, she spent almost her life here and she has as much right as anyone in the country.

BTW, I did NOT support Sonia for her inexperience & her Gandhi background. But, I wud not give excuses like she is a caucasian or a foreigner or a minority christian or a female and so on. That wud be BS in my view.

thiru_kk
05-17-2004, 04:57 PM
Arugument against Sonia

The Rediff Special/Sheela Bhatt May 17, 2004
Source:rediff.com

A senior bureaucrat, who served Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi and is now retired, argued passionately against Sonia Gandhi's candidature for the prime minister's post.

The following were the points he raised, which also sum up the objections of those who are against a foreign-born head of government:

a. When India became independent, those who framed our Constitution felt that those Indians who had migrated to countries such as Mauritius, Fiji, etc during British rule and acquired the citizenship of the country of adoption should have the right and opportunity to aspire to the highest office if they chose to renounce their foreign citizenship, returned to India, and resumed their Indian citizenship. Hence, they did not put a bar on an Indian citizen of foreign origin aspiring to any office. They did not visualise the possibility that one day a foreigner who became an Indian citizen by virtue of marriage might benefit from this provision to become prime minister.

After this loophole surfaced, we should have tried to amend the Constitution. Unfortunately, our politicians did not do it and now they cannot do it because of the fact that since 1989 no political party by itself has had the requisite majority.

Does it mean we have to accept this as an unpleasant reality and live with it, instead of raising it and drawing public attention to it? No. The fact that something cannot be changed does not mean that one should not try to change it.

b. What is legal need not be correct and in the national interest. Till the First World War, women did not have the right to vote in many Western countries. Till the 1970s, women did not have the right to vote in many Swiss cantons. Many men and political conservatives argued that this was the law and women should accept it. Liberals refused, saying what is legal need not be correct. They repeatedly challenged the constitution till it was amended and they were given the right to vote.

c. The argument that in the recent election voters endorsed Sonia's right to become prime minister and rejected J Jayalalithaa and Narendra Modi who had opposed it is misleading. In an election to Parliament or a state assembly, many issues come up. Neither in India nor in any of the Western democracies is a vote interpreted as an endorsement of a candidate or party's stand on all the issues that figured during that election. The fact that Jayalalithaa's party was defeated in every constituency in Tamil Nadu does not mean the people have rejected her case against a person of foreign origin becoming prime minister.

Moreover, the Congress and BJP have won an almost equal number of seats and votes, the difference in favour of the Congress being very small. In other democracies, whenever a single issue assumes tremendous importance, a referendum is held to ascertain the people's views on that issue. In the Swiss cantons where women did not have the right to vote, male-dominated parties argued that since they were winning the election to the assemblies their victory meant the voters agreed with them that women should not have the right to vote. Women did not accept this argument and demanded a referendum on this issue posing a single question to voters: Should women have the right to vote? When the question was posed in this direct manner without confusing it with other issues, the majority voted in favour of giving this right to women.

Similarly, in the UK the country's stand on the European Union constitution is a highly emotive issue. British Prime Minister Tony Blair did not argue that since his party won an overwhelming majority in the last election, the people should be deemed to have supported his and his party's stand on this issue. He has called for a referendum where a single question on this subject will be posed to the voters and they will be asked to vote yes or no. Unfortunately, our Constitution does not provide for a referendum on such emotive issues.

d. There are many countries where persons of foreign origin can aspire to the highest office. Such persons fall in two categories. First, those who migrated from the country to another country, acquired citizenship there, then returned and re-assumed home citizenship, and won elections. Examples are the countries of Eastern Europe. During Communist rule, thousands of their citizens fled to the US, sought political asylum and acquired US citizenship. After Communism collapsed, they renounced US citizenship, returned to their homelands, re-acquired citizenship and contested and won elections. Some of them became presidents and prime ministers. The people accepted them as their own flesh and blood.

e. Whenever a foreigner settles down in another country and applies for local citizenship, he or she is subjected to elaborate enquiries and background checks before citizenship is granted. Sonia Gandhi was not subjected to such detailed checks and enquiries because she was the daughter-in-law of the then prime minister.

f. Even if the law permits it, appointing a person of foreign origin as the prime minister is an insult to our national dignity and pride. The constitutions of dozens of countries in the world do not bar a local citizen of foreign origin from aspiring to the highest office.

g. We may regard Sonia as an Indian citizen. But the Italians and the rest of the Western world look upon her as Italian and not Indian and remember only that her blood is Italian. Six out of 10 foreign newspapers have headlined her election as 'India's first Italian prime minister,' not as 'India's new prime minister.' Is this the way we want the prime minister of our country to be perceived by the rest of the world?

h. As prime minister, she will take decisions involving this country's destiny, war and peace, and will have her finger on the nuclear button. Would we be comfortable if these awesome powers are exercised by a person of foreign origin?

i. Army men and intelligence sleuths are taught the hard way to imbibe in their work culture the intense notion of national pride. Sonia Gandhi's Italian origin will come in their way while saluting her. Do you think the army chief will not hesitate even once while sharing his views with her on national security or the European Union?

j. We know little about her. But those who know her well claim that she is imperious in her behaviour and insecure by nature. Also, she is completely dependent on a durbari culture. Even her supporters agree that she doesn't have her own view on any important matter.

k. Rajiv Gandhi, an Indian by blood, came to office with tremendous popularity and a popular image as Mr Clean. He left office in 1989 discredited because of various scandals, Bofors being the most important. Rajiv himself was not a corrupt man, but he got the image of being corrupt because of his Italian marriage and the alleged influence exercised on the decision-making apparatus in India by his wife's relatives and friends. If the Italians could exercise such influence when the prime minister was hundred percent Indian, what guarantee is there that they will not exercise similar or greater influence when the prime minister is of Italian origin?

thiru_kk
05-17-2004, 05:00 PM
Argument For Sonia Gandhi

Source: Rediff.com

Contributing Editor Sheela Bhatt listens to arguments for and against Sonia Gandhi becoming India's first foreign-born prime minister

As a surprised India watches Atal Bihari Vajpayee walk away into likely retirement, the debate over his likely successor Sonia Gandhi has intensified. While those opposing India's first foreign-born prime minister have been loudly stating their views, the Congress president does have her supporters too. What follows are some of the arguments heard in New Delhi over the last three days in her favour:

a. Sonia Gandhi is a naturalised citizen of India and the Supreme Court has validated her status. The Congress party's moves and her own politics are well within the limits of the Indian Constitution. As such no party or individual can stop her as the elected parliamentarians of her party have accepted her as their leader.

b. It goes against the basic tenets of Hinduism to oppose her just because she was born in Italy. Since centuries Hindus believe in Vasudaiva Kutumbakam, or 'the world is one family.' Sonia says she is Indian and believes in Indian culture. There is no reason not to accept her claim because there is nothing on hand, so far, to prove her wrong.

c. Even her critics acknowledge that she has shown her mettle as an 'oonche ghar ki bahu' befitting the high standards set by the tradition called the Hindu Undivided Family.

d. The definition of national pride has evolved since the days of the Mahabharat. There is a need to take a sublime rather than a supercilious view of Hindutva. Times have changed and so have global realities. If you oppose her candidature, none of the non-resident Indians and people of Indian origin living outside India will be able to demand equal rights in their countries of residence.

e. Her elevation to the highest office will raise India's stock in the international arena. India will be seen as a liberal, tolerant, secular and progressive culture. India will stand tall in the free world.

f. How can one explain the support and acceptance of Sonia Gandhi by 542 Indian parliamentarians since the last six years when she was leader of the Opposition? Was that considered anti-national by the BJP? No. During her tenure as leader of the Opposition, did she do anything that shamed Indian democracy? No. So what is the great need to discuss her origin now?

g. All the political personalities who opposed her and exclusively targeted her in Election 2004 have been humbled by the people of India. Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa did not raise any other issue but that of Sonia's foreign origin. Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi's sole target was Sonia Gandhi. His attacks on her lacked dignity and decency. Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy has been deriding her for many years. All three have been humbled by voters. The Congress won against Modi and Jayalalithaa. Swamy lost in Madurai. Believers of democracy have no option but to respect the verdict of the voters who have unambiguously rejected the anti-Sonia brigade.

h. Base instincts of fear, jealousy, intolerance, and parochialism are coming to the fore in the case of some anti-Congress leaders who are opposing her. She has achieved something most political leaders of the country could not even dream of till the morning of May 13. Most people kept focusing on her weaknesses and overlooked her strengths. Her staunch opponents have been caught unawares.

Those handful of Congressmen who were behind the making of Sonia Gandhi proved smarter than the Sanghis. Some of the anti-Sonia leaders' frustration is also against the system, which she has used to her advantage. Even in 1999, when her foreign origin was first raised, why did these so-called nationalists not comprehend fully the implications of the country's legal/political system that allows any foreign-born Indian citizen to become prime minister?

Equally important is the fact that any Indian who is elected by his/her party's elected representatives as their leader in the Lok Sabha can become prime minister. Laws are as simple as that! Why blame her now? Blame the lack of judgment of Sonia's opponents and their inability to take a long-term view.

i. The 11-member National Commission to Review the Working of the Constitution, headed by Justice M N Venkatachalliah, also did not recommend any change in the Constitution in this regard. Then, the BJP played politics and its members didn't argue the case on the issue. They perhaps thought they would remain in power for long. They lost a golden chance.

j. The foreign origin issue will now occupy prime position in Indian politics. Sushma Swaraj has already taken the lead. But this lobby will have to take into account the fact that in the villages of India Sonia Gandhi's image is that of a victim. If she plays her cards well, any agitation against her will be seen as victimisation of a victim. The Sushma Swaraj type of leaders do have their own standing, but they are not seen as pro-poor. Sonia Gandhi enjoys that halo for the time being.

k. Believe it or not, many Congressmen think the BJP and the Sangh Parivar oppose her not because she is foreign-born. They oppose her because she is becoming prime minister to buy time for her son Rahul Gandhi. Congressmen think that Sonia Gandhi and Rahul Gandhi are the only hurdles in the BJP's pursuit of power. In Election 2004, Sonia singlehandedly robbed the BJP of power. The BJP is not worried about the Congress or Congressmen, but they do fear Sonia Gandhi's emotional appeal and brave nature. Congressmen need Sonia more than ever now.

l. In Fiji, England, Guyana, and in many other countries persons of foreign origin can occupy high posts. Even in the US, a movement is starting to take shape to amend the constitution to allow naturalised Americans to aspire for the presidency.

m. Of course, Sonia Gandhi is not considered an outstanding leader, thinker or visionary. But look around in New Delhi and in the state capitals and you will find tremendous power concentrated in the hands of unbearably corrupt, inexcusably inept, illiterate and feudal politicians. Sonia Gandhi is untested yet. She deserves a chance.

n. It is incorrect to argue that the ordinary people of India did not know she could become prime minister. Congress spokesmen always said the issue of leadership would be decided after the election. They never said Sonia Gandhi is not in the race. Our laws do not require the direct mandate of the people to elect the prime minister. It is a prerogative of the elected representatives. And they have duly exercised their right.

o. The RSS-sponsored agitation against Sonia Gandhi will make her stronger than she is today. Power always makes a leader more attractive. Congressmen know she will have access to files and only her signature will matter. There are chances of the anti-Sonia agitation fizzling out because it's a little late in some respects and a little ahead of its time in others.

p. For the sake of argument, Sonia Gandhi's supporters can also claim that the Dravidians and the tribals are the only true Indians. All others are hybrids. In fact, till recently some upper-caste communities in the Hindi belt were even proud of their Greek lineage.

q. Three years ago, former prime minister P V Narasimha Rao had told a journalist that 'nobody can stop Sonia Gandhi from becoming prime minister except elected Congressmen.' He was so right.

Shy
05-17-2004, 05:06 PM
:00: :00: :00: :00: :00:

Thiru vanthutaen, bit busy.. evening vanthu reply panraen !!! Arguments for sonia gandhi :evil: :evil: athum double post.. neenga 1000 times post paninalum..avo forienger and its a disaster thaan ;)

Just kidding with that smiley thappa nenaichukaatheengo :) evening reply panraen

Shy

thiru_kk
05-17-2004, 05:19 PM
Shy, ரெண்டு Post pannala.. onnu aatharavu.. onnu ethirppu.. konjam cool drinks kudichittu cool aah vanthu padiunga.. . Thiru postingnalae sandaikku varinju katti varathukku ready aayiduveengala enna... :P :P :P :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shy
05-17-2004, 05:42 PM
:oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: Amma just points paarthu neenga soniaku support mela support thareengaloonu nenaicutaen.. my bad :(

Anianarum naanum usuala sandai pooduvoom, but entha time, we both are in same team ;) plus neengo kalakal opponent debater...So unga kuuda sandai poota shuper'a irukku ;)

nalla ice vachu irukaen.. olunga sonia oliganu post panunga :sm12: :sm12:

Shy

sri_gan
05-17-2004, 05:44 PM
Shy,

Sonia wouldn't even dreamt of being a Prime Minister of Nation which Represents Human Population from Earth, guess what its like bumper lottery.

These people argue all sort of things, but basically they have no clue in what they want and what they are doing.

In case of an Average Indian, To be Honest they don't care who represents them, some people don't even know (thats the majority thats why these sort of things happen).

At the end of the day if you go to a North Indian Village that Villager will say Its our "Bahu", they don't care who is joining who or what is a stock or why to have a technology.

Thats the people who voted to win and they still don't know element's which plotted the plan to take down Rajiv Gandhi did won the campaign, 'cause these messages never reach them at all for generations (no joke!).

Election Commision can enforce uptight rules like No more Gifts (Rice, Saree, vengayam Vellakennai) while campaign and they should enforce more rules to give the proposal and if they didn't complete they should take the responsibility of not completing and I really don't mind if they get punished if they didn't complete the Job they proposed. People might protest to dissolve election commision itself :sm12: :sm12::sm12::sm12: (Nalla ve pannuvanga)

To my knowledge I think people are just happy as they are and they are just trying to switch some parties and whatever they get as free is fun rest is not that much fun but ok.

Ivalothan... this cannot be proved Scientifically, but its the fact.

anainar
05-17-2004, 05:50 PM
Believers of democracy have no option but to respect the verdict of the voters who have unambiguously rejected the anti-Sonia brigade.

Nothing can be far from the truth. The mandate is 145 seats for Congress and 138 for BJP. Not even 1/3rd of the seats were won by Congress. And they are talking about having got the mandate for Sonia. It is a loophole in our parliamentary system that has been subverted time and again to force leaders on us. Left which was opposed to Sonia/Congress till elections were suddenly are the bedfellas.

In a way I see this as a sign for things to come and people to grow. We have had NDA govt for 6 years and it is time for people to taste what life is like under Congress/Left combine. They got a kickstart by sensex sinking by 800 points first time in past 130 years. Had it not been govt subsidiary LIC and State finance corporations plunging in with extra cash, it would have sunk even further. Now the question is how is this present govt going to send signals which are good for the country and economy. My reading is instead of spreading prosperity, in the name of equality, the present govt is going to spread poverty all over. Atleast some 200 million middle class pockets are shining in India now. They will also loose their sheen now. Already markets lost more than 300,000 crores in market capitalisation. Left could not have been more happy now, as it is time for them to push for more regulations and let govt control or own Stock Market.

Cheers

Cheers

dinesh
05-17-2004, 06:07 PM
In a way I see this as a sign for things to come and people to grow. We have had NDA govt for 6 years and it is time for people to taste what life is like under Congress/Left combine. They got a kickstart by sensex sinking by 800 points first time in past 130 years. Had it not been govt subsidiary LIC and State finance corporations plunging in with extra cash, it would have sunk even further. Now the question is how is this present govt going to send signals which are good for the country and economy. My reading is instead of spreading prosperity, in the name of equality, the present govt is going to spread poverty all over. Atleast some 200 million middle class pockets are shining in India now. They will also loose their sheen now. Already markets lost more than 300,000 crores in market capitalisation. Left could not have been more happy now, as it is time for them to push for more regulations and let govt control or own Stock Market.

I couldn't believe when I saw this happened. It's confusion everywhere. Trading was suspended twice and even that couldn't halt the slide. Surely someone must be in-charge and should bring out a statement assuring the investors, and decrease the rumours. Apart from a vague statement fom Manmohan Singh, nothing happened. I hope this is just a one-off incident and isn't just a preview of what's gonna happen for the next half decade.

anainar
05-17-2004, 06:41 PM
Dinesh,

It is paronia every where because of instability. Left as usual dont want to be part of govt but want to control. They want authority without responsibility. They want to control the govt policies without being part of it. How convenient that can be?

And they have taken their economic agenda to the TV stations and media even before talking to their allies to get brownie points. For the first time in the history of India they are tasting such a state where they can dictate terms and are relishing the power. They have no clue of what they are ushering in and how many years of hardwork is going to trashcan. There has been steady flow of foreign investment and in the fist 4 months more than $10 billion flowed into India. Imagine that money being pulled out in one week. Obviously it will be crash. Cancellation of trading is essentially to stop panic before the govt can take some action. It is just buying time. Not a remedy. That has to come from the govt.

It will take the next budget to be presented before some sort of sensibility sinks in. Till then it will be pessimism and holding on to key decisions by investors. Manmohan Singh also cannot make concrete statements because they have to get the consent of Left before announcing and hence he also could not do anything.

I for sure lost some of my savings. So would have been many retail investors. I am holding on to my investments hoping things will improve. Otherwise, it will be years of my hard earned savings going down the drain.

Cheers

RaasuKutty
05-17-2004, 06:46 PM
Now 10 days later, I am sure that there will be some statement from a leftist that this market crash was entirely b'coz of BJP.. Hadn't BJP privatised those 22 companies, sensex wudn't have crashed so much... just cant bear with the left parties...

I just cant beleive this.. Luckily there was some soul in the congress party to atleast raise a word...

If we see the common minimum program (If something like that atleast exists), we can conclude...

sri_gan
05-17-2004, 07:18 PM
In a way I see this as a sign for things to come and people to grow. We have had NDA govt for 6 years and it is time for people to taste what life is like under Congress/Left combine. They got a kickstart by sensex sinking by 800 points first time in past 130 years. Had it not been govt subsidiary LIC and State finance corporations plunging in with extra cash, it would have sunk even further. Now the question is how is this present govt going to send signals which are good for the country and economy. My reading is instead of spreading prosperity, in the name of equality, the present govt is going to spread poverty all over. Atleast some 200 million middle class pockets are shining in India now. They will also loose their sheen now. Already markets lost more than 300,000 crores in market capitalisation. Left could not have been more happy now, as it is time for them to push for more regulations and let govt control or own Stock Market.

I couldn't believe when I saw this happened. It's confusion everywhere. Trading was suspended twice and even that couldn't halt the slide. Surely someone must be in-charge and should bring out a statement assuring the investors, and decrease the rumours. Apart from a vague statement fom Manmohan Singh, nothing happened. I hope this is just a one-off incident and isn't just a preview of what's gonna happen for the next half decade.


Amma Aatchikku varanum le athukku appuram than pesanum... athukkule stock athu ithu ellam pesurenga enakku vera onnum puriya mattengithu :sm12: :sm12: :sm12: :sm12:

vasan
05-17-2004, 07:41 PM
Believers of democracy have no option but to respect the verdict of the voters who have unambiguously rejected the anti-Sonia brigade.

Nothing can be far from the truth. The mandate is 145 seats for Congress and 138 for BJP. Not even 1/3rd of the seats were won by Congress. And they are talking about having got the mandate for Sonia. It is a loophole in our parliamentary system that has been subverted time and again to force leaders on us. Left which was opposed to Sonia/Congress till elections were suddenly are the bedfellas.

Cheers

Oh.. I see. Messrs. Rao, Gowda, Sekhar, Singh, and Vajpayee could rule with the help of other alliances, with a common program, and that can be called a 'people's' verdict - where as in a much similar situation, Mrs. Gandhi is elected that becomes "far from truth" and "hijacking" of democracy or failure of system...

My dear Anainar, Dear Sir.. I do believe there is a huge inconsistency in your arguments. IF it is not People's madate - however meagre that might be - she is elected based on whatever SYSTEM we have. That is the TRUTH. We might not like it - but it does not make it a lie.

On various other posts:

1) If wife's of PMs can be a 'spy' for another country, how about grandson's wifes? Or third and fourth cousins? After all aren't we supposed to be big on Extended Family !!! :sm12: Are we supposed to disown any one who has 'gone' abroad? Holy smoke, Mr. Vasan (write every other names you can think of) is educated in US and has 'strong' connections.. He could be a SPY... !!! Most ridiculous comments made by any one - and Mr. Gurumurthy has excelled himself!! By the way, the much liked (by many here!!) Presidential Candidate in US is married to a RICH non- US born american. I wonder why nary a word has been said about her in their political analysis.

2) Bharathiyar' poem on 'aayiram jaathi and anniyan' is written in the context of English ruling India. Gurumurthy has no understanding of Tamil to interpret it to Sonia Gandhi. She is not 'collecting' taxes for another country. If people can abuse a poem to suit thier agendas - just like people demanding Telengana, Seperate Assam and a Million other seperatists - Bharathi could be used by any one. I can only pity him.

Hey Madhu,

Yes! Political discussion is not allowed in Geetham !! :P :P But these are 'healthy exchange of View points.. :sm12: that concerns the Nation' :P :P After talking this much of politics, if we can't even use a dialogue like this... :P :P

Vasan

venky1974
05-17-2004, 08:19 PM
Intresting Topic...

I havent read the whole topic but the first few.. will read whole and add more.

Just as a start. If Indians can bring V.P.Singh down from the PM ship, Sonia is nothing.. Its not that she has India for 5 Yrs. If she does good she stays, if she does bad.. she will be kicked out..that is the strengh of the Indian People.

Will share more..

Cheers,

butterfly
05-17-2004, 10:20 PM
vasan wrote


Hey Madhu,

Yes! Political discussion is not allowed in Geetham !! But these are 'healthy exchange of View points.. that concerns the Nation' After talking this much of politics, if we can't even use a dialogue like this...

Vasan


vasan,
All i see is ranting here :(...i understand ppl need to vent their feelings...but i dont understand wats the point of crying over spoilt milk.....is it helping anyone?...its a sad feeling that sonia wasnt born in India....but now she is Our PM....PM Of India...as an indian if we keep ranting about wat she was & wat she did how good is it?...If we cant respect our own Pm ...how can u expect others respecting her...everyone forgets she represents our country now....yarai azhipom...eppadi azhipom...enge azhipomnu ninaichindu irundha india eppadi muneram??..I personally feel we shud put our acts together & see how we can support her & i support madhu 100%...If a rule exists then everyone is obliged to follow that :)

vasan
05-17-2004, 10:40 PM
vasan,
All i see is ranting here :(...i understand ppl need to vent their feelings...but i dont understand wats the point of crying over spoilt milk.....is it helping anyone?...its a sad feeling that sonia wasnt born in India....but now she is Our PM....PM Of India...as an indian if we keep ranting about wat she was & wat she did how good is it?...If we cant respect our own Pm ...how can u expect others respecting her...everyone forgets she represents our country now....yarai azhipom...eppadi azhipom...enge azhipomnu ninaichindu irundha india eppadi muneram??..I personally feel we shud put our acts together & see how we can support her & i support madhu 100%...If a rule exists then everyone is obliged to follow that :)

Hi Pattams,

I agree that much of conversation is plain outpouring of feelings. Hm... Indians, right? How can we separate feelings from politics? :wink: Thats not an insult or anything, its just a comment on the passionate way with which we feel about politics.

Normally politics is not encouraged - but elections are some special occasions and if we are following other rules of the forum- such as treating others posts with respect etc - I am hoping we could make an exception to the rule of No-Politics. I mean, all of us are discussing (or shouting our opinions :P ), based on this assumption.

Please forgive me if its not totally 'up-to' the mark of Geetham - but I hope all of us would permit a little more relaxation of rules in these special occasion of elections. Okvaa? :P :P

Hmm.. and soon to take away the effect of 'too-many' topics on politics, I will post some cool pics of Gorgeous Actresses (across the world), and all can say oooh-aaahs or come with duh@vasan, :evil:, aruvaal, poorikattai and poshnikaa.. :P :P :P

Thanks !

Vasan

anainar
05-17-2004, 11:44 PM
All i see is ranting here

Ranings? That is a strong word totally off the mark to describe our writings. Ranting are general cribs without any purpose. Ours is not without purpose. If it is ranting, how do you describe the fall of BSE to a historic low in the last 130 years? Rantings normally dont have any effect. But look at this? A whopping Re. 300,000 crores is wiped out in one day. Does'nt that mean something to us as being Indian?

Also it is wrong to categorize every one as "renegages who left the country". I have worked in India for more than 10 years paying lacs and lacs as taxes. I am still a citzen of India and have every right to have concerns of Indian policies.Whether that can be written

Vasan, I always support pre poll alliances with agreed minimum programme put before people to give their mandate on. Congress and Left had totally different agendas before poll and now they are bedfellas. So was Deve Gowda's and IK Gujrals and Vajpayees. That is why they all failed, unlike the previous coalition.The previous govt succeeded because of pre poll alliance.

Let us see what is the minimum program they come up with.

Cheers

dinesh
05-18-2004, 12:08 AM
Hmmmm......no offense to anyone, but we've been discussing this particular area for some time.....and maybe all of us should take a collective breather perhaps........or it'll make all of us depressed.....and annoyed at each other

what say we nominate Vasan to produce one of his legendary droolable picture/poetry posts over some cute "subject", so we can divert our glance over there for a bit :sm12:

just a suggestion guys..... :pray:

katteri
05-18-2004, 12:30 AM
correct shidenesh ...

Yosithcu paarthaa nama kayil onnum illai .. ipaaaaaaaa

Parpom eppadi poguthunu

gokulan42
05-18-2004, 02:09 AM
Now 10 days later, I am sure that there will be some statement from a leftist that this market crash was entirely b'coz of BJP.. Hadn't BJP privatised those 22 companies, sensex wudn't have crashed so much... just cant bear with the left parties...

Isn't there a little truth in it? I am not that much into leftism, but can argue both ways ;)

butterfly
05-18-2004, 02:21 AM
anainar wrote,


Ranings? That is a strong word totally off the mark to describe our writings. Ranting are general cribs without any purpose. Ours is not without purpose.

anainar,
I agree everyone is talking about wat happened...its true the stocks went down...but ippo here @ geetham wat can we do?...& many topics going on negative sides of sonia....she is our PM now...cant we put all the differences aside & give her a chance to see how she does?

vasan wrote,


Hmm.. and soon to take away the effect of 'too-many' topics on politics, I will post some cool pics of Gorgeous Actresses (across the world), and all can say oooh-aaahs or come with duh@vasan, , aruvaal, poorikattai and poshnikaa..


Sure but along with some good looking actors too :)

suryalover
05-18-2004, 02:59 AM
AFter reading all these also

I am convinced that Sonia can rule India.

She has the every right to.........But there is some itch in one corner though......

I would have chosed non BJP gov, which is Sonia ofcourse. :b:

thiru_kk
05-18-2004, 06:33 AM
Governing a country is not something emotional or spreading rumurs as feelings. Governance is based on Constitution. Indian Constitution is not against Sonia to be our Prime Minister. Even though BJP was in power for the full term and had the constitution review committee the issue of foreign born Indian National for Highest Office was not taken for amendment. Everyone know that Sonia is on the way to the highest office! So why then the same people cook slogans, threaten to resign etc. It shows their weakness rather than te strength to face this reality!

Also she is a citizen of India and there shouldn’t be any further question about her citizenship as per the Supreme Court judgment. It is invalid to raise the issue of foreign born now!

Let us focus on what do we expect from Sonia (our Prime Minister) and her government. People gave a verdict as the did before to Vajpayee, V.P.Singh, Indira, Morarjidesai so on… We should learn to respect the democracy.

Sonia as a person has strong capacities to unite the people for a common cause and that’s a strength which will lead India to victory in global and Home politics (if we allow her to perform her duty to the Country).

This foreign born issue is nothing in front of good governance issue! I am curious on the Policies and the Governance issues…let me wait and see the future -on what difference the congress makes under the leadership of Sonia…. :think: :think:

Shy
05-19-2004, 02:37 AM
b. It goes against the basic tenets of Hinduism to oppose her just because she was born in Italy. Since centuries Hindus believe in Vasudaiva Kutumbakam, or 'the world is one family.' Sonia says she is Indian and believes in Indian culture. There is no reason not to accept her claim because there is nothing on hand, so far, to prove her wrong.

Kindala, BJP rule panracha matum they are fundamentalist athu ithunu paesuvaanga... eppo matum hindusim yaeduthu argument panraangala !!!


e. Her elevation to the highest office will raise India's stock in the international arena. India will be seen as a liberal, tolerant, secular and progressive culture. India will stand tall in the free world.

Anthaan we experinced a 149 year low.. Just avo vara pooranu sonathukae eppaadina.. imagine the fate if shes going to be there for 5 years :00:


f. How can one explain the support and acceptance of Sonia Gandhi by 542 Indian parliamentarians since the last six years when she was leader of the Opposition? Was that considered anti-national by the BJP? No. During her tenure as leader of the Opposition, did she do anything that shamed Indian democracy? No. So what is the great need to discuss her origin now?

Opposition leader is not the one whose representing india. We dont give a damn care about whoe sitting on the other side, exceptional BJP ;) Opposition leaderaiyum oru PMaiyum eppadi compare panalaam !!! Is opposition leader going to make all the major decisions for India. Is that person going to know abt all the secrets of India???


g. All the political personalities who opposed her and exclusively targeted her in Election 2004 have been humbled by the people of India. Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J Jayalalithaa did not raise any other issue but that of Sonia's foreign origin. Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi's sole target was Sonia Gandhi. His attacks on her lacked dignity and decency. Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy has been deriding her for many years. All three have been humbled by voters. The Congress won against Modi and Jayalalithaa. Swamy lost in Madurai. Believers of democracy have no option but to respect the verdict of the voters who have unambiguously rejected the anti-Sonia brigade.

This is just a usual twist by the people tat congress won. NExt 5 yearsla paarunga JJ vara thaan poora ;) BTW now i remember rajanand engae aalae kanoom ;) me escapee :ee:


h. Base instincts of fear, jealousy, intolerance, and parochialism are coming to the fore in the case of some anti-Congress leaders who are opposing her. She has achieved something most political leaders of the country could not even dream of till the morning of May 13. Most people kept focusing on her weaknesses and overlooked her strengths. Her staunch opponents have been caught unawares.

Just tell us one good incident that she might have done that other congress leaders didnt. Or what she did as a person instead of hanging around with the lastname, waving hands, wearing saree and being a bhahoo


l. In Fiji, England, Guyana, and in many other countries persons of foreign origin can occupy high posts. Even in the US, a movement is starting to take shape to amend the constitution to allow naturalised Americans to aspire for the presidency.

Yeah well, those countries are not india, simple as that !!!


q. Three years ago, former prime minister P V Narasimha Rao had told a journalist that 'nobody can stop Sonia Gandhi from becoming prime minister except elected Congressmen.' He was so right.

yeah right, that corrupted PM ooda varathai deva vaaka :sm12: :sm12:

eppothaikku evaloo, other pointskku appuram answer panraen :D

Shy

Shy
05-19-2004, 02:53 AM
vasan wrote


Hey Madhu,

Yes! Political discussion is not allowed in Geetham !! But these are 'healthy exchange of View points.. that concerns the Nation' After talking this much of politics, if we can't even use a dialogue like this...

Vasan


vasan,
All i see is ranting here :(...i understand ppl need to vent their feelings...but i dont understand wats the point of crying over spoilt milk.....is it helping anyone?...its a sad feeling that sonia wasnt born in India....but now she is Our PM....PM Of India...as an indian if we keep ranting about wat she was & wat she did how good is it?...If we cant respect our own Pm ...how can u expect others respecting her...everyone forgets she represents our country now....yarai azhipom...eppadi azhipom...enge azhipomnu ninaichindu irundha india eppadi muneram??..I personally feel we shud put our acts together & see how we can support her & i support madhu 100%...If a rule exists then everyone is obliged to follow that :)

mm.. sad to hear that pattams.. Its not crying over spoilt milk or checking if its helping anyone. As an indian, everyone has the rights to voice their opinions. It doesnt need a timeframe to vent their feelings. Its not sad that she was not born in our country. Why shud i shud be sad, when there are 1 billion fello citizens with me, who are capable of ruling my country !!!
Just because of some election upset someone becomes a PM, it doesnt mean we shud all be flocks and accept them. Is PM position as trial and error job to be given to someone whose going to represent our country for the next 5 years!!!

What do u mean by yaarai azhipom, engae azhipom??? first time in indian history the IT is great and all over the world, india is a better option along with china. Its took 5 years for BJP to elevate the point to 560 or so!! it took just 3 days for a person like her to crush it. Where is the answer for that, I just read anainars post billions of money has been already lost because of her political stunt. How do we get that money back. Is this how shes going to bring up our country..

This is a democratic country, even though she won, there are millions of people who still feel the shame that a foreigner is representing us and the insecureness about the future of our country. People like us in geetham , can just talk over the issue because we are far away from our country and we cant vote, we can just tell our opinions here and that is no ranting, but its our right as as an Indian !!!

Shy

RaasuKutty
05-19-2004, 03:27 AM
I just read anainars post billions of money has been already lost because of her political stunt.


billion illai... billion ellam thaandi... 3 trillion rupees... or roughly 1/8th of the value of Indian public ltd companies...

but luckily, our market bounced back very well... Manmohan Singh PM + P.Chidambaram (FM) was probably the best ever possibility one cud have ever imagined after polls 04...

But after saying all these, a word of praise for Sonia.. She had the guts and feeling to turn back the offer...

gokulan42
05-19-2004, 04:12 AM
I hope they change the consitution to ban the 'foreigners'. Otherwise, may be one day some of our kids (any kid who is born outside India will take the same cut) will be blamed for the stock market crash bcoz some politicians (left) say some stupid things during a crucial time like this.

DemoCRAZY for sure ;)

But, I cant wait for Manmohan Singh (another minority) to be the PM to work with Kalam our President (minority ofcourse). Democracy, ofcourse :b:

thiru_kk
05-19-2004, 04:41 AM
Naatula kulapam vanthaalum paravaa ila BJP thaan aatchikku varanumnu adimanathila kidakkura ennangkal thaan ippadi ellam veliyae varuthu... :D :D

Sonia mattumila foreigner to the "People of the land" (Indians). From the first invaders Ariyans to the current ones (including Vajpayee) are directly or indirectly foreigners... The tribal people and Dravidians are the people of the land.. thats History. We cannot neglect the History, but have to adopt to the current reality. :D :D

This kuiyo muraiyo kathal of BJP/RSS sanghis are nothing but a kind of xenophobia. Soon this campaign will fireback to the one who campaign! I am not a supporter of congress, but in my faith this is an unwanted street bullying. Our democracy is not so simple as everyone fears! Think of JJ's U-Turn on her policies - That's the beauty of democracy! :b: :b:

katteri
05-19-2004, 07:30 AM
Thiru if she had experience of handling situation and in politics much wud have been shut.

Sterday i saw the video of complete speech , a bad hindi, a poor speaker, stammering freq and looking manmohan singh freq to c whether she s reading (not i said reading not speaking) right.


Eppadi pa aachiya kodukirathu..

katteri
05-19-2004, 07:33 AM
Renuka choudhary, mani shankar aiyer ellam Glycerine illama super a act pannangha.....
Ethavathu minister post kidaikaathanu,....

Ennaa man feelings & sentiments ingheee...