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  1. #41
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    Shy,

    Ippadi history solli kavuthiteenga. But I dont understand who said Hindi is foreign language. Hindi has many dialects and you have put the history in perspective. But all the native langugages ( 16 I presume )with scripts are declared as official languages. I dont think Hindi is categorized as national language in our constitution or any statutes. It is just people keep on saying.

    Interestingly all the invaders when they came to the deccan plateau never progressed beyond that to cause serious infulence in southern India. That is why we see very less influence of Mughals, Urdu in southern part. What ever we have is because of migrant population that built. Thirumalai nayakkar invited people from Maharashtra and Gujarat to come and do trade in Madurai, causing a dispersal of north indian culture in southern part. But as such, south indians are fiercely independent fighting any attempt to impose any languages which forced Nehru to declare that Hindi will not be forced on us. All these are side notes and history.

    I am not against hindi. I myself talk fluent hindi though I am from the southmost part of Tamilnadu, Kanyakumari. But it was not forced on me. That is what everything is about. The moment it is declared as national language and people forced to learn that, we lose the freedom enshrined on us. That is what we are against. If my son does not want to learn hindi, he should not be penalised in Govt sector. The fight of dravidian parties are for that.

    Cheers.
    Every dog has its day. Today is my day.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by venky1974
    Surya Lover,

    Please go through thsi site.

    http://www.cuisinecuisine.com/CultureLanguages.htm

    More to come

    Venky.
    Ha ha:

    You yourself give the evidence for my point. Thanks.
    It says Sanskrit is the Aryan Language. Tamil is a ancient Dravidian Language.
    So onviously Tamil is not a subset of Sankrit...
    Note all Indians are not Aryans.. The original Indians were Dravidians and Aryans are settlers in Dravidian Territory..

  3. #43

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    Also folks, it is easy to quote some references from Internet, and say, see.. tamil is this, and that and derived from heree.... Since when is Internet the most authentic resource around... ?? I can put up anything I want and another person quoting it could simply say my webpage and claim its true...

    Please... Tamil is among the oldest languages in the world. The earliest tamil langauage archeaological evidences point to that. Any good, unbaised books on History of South Indian Languages will tell you that. Read the Brittanica for a short out take on that..

    Tamil is my language. India is my country. These are not contradictions but truth.
    Short Measures
    It is a wretched taste to be gratified with mediocrity when the excellent lies before us - Isaac Disraeli

  4. #44
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    Also folks, it is easy to quote some references from Internet, and say, see.. tamil is this, and that and derived from heree.... Since when is Internet the most authentic resource around... ?? I can put up anything I want and another person quoting it could simply say my webpage and claim its true...
    I agree with you on this Vasan. It so happens that ppl tend to believe what is posted, when the other is trying to explain.

    Tamil is the Language of the Tamils, Hindi is the Language of the Aryans so on and so forth.

    If a person seems that it is necessary for him to learn a different language to communicate better then there is no harm to that. Like I said before and I say again, we are to be united as Indians. Language is a mere tool for comunicating.

    If we were to ward off our differences of language, caste etc we can be one India and no once can touch us. These petty fights are because of ppl who don't care for the harmony of our country.

    It says Sanskrit is the Aryan Language. Tamil is a ancient Dravidian Language.
    So onviously Tamil is not a subset of Sankrit...
    Tamil Language has words from Sanskrit . This is just for information.

    Venky

  5. #45
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    The following is from one of the Chapters on Hindu Dharma by
    MahaPeriyaval Shri ShriChandrasekharendra Sarasvati Swami. This extract is from

    http://www.kamakoti.org.

    It is not my purpose to claim that Sanskrit is superior to Tamil. When do feelings of superiority arise to make us happy? When we are conscious of differences between what we believe is "ours" and what we believe is "theirs". Where we to have racial bias, we could be tempted to speak in appreciative terms of what is "ours" and to deprecate what is "theirs". If we realise that to harbour feelings based on racial differences is itself wrong, that our languages have sprung from the same family, from the same cultural tradition, there will be no cause for speaking highly of one language at the expense of another.

    I read this and I thought that I would share it with you all.

    If you want to read more here is the link

    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part7/chap4.htm

    Venky[/url]

  6. #46

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    Tamil Language has words from Sanskrit . This is just for information.
    Venky
    The Tamil language which we are now using is not the pure tamil. We include words from English too while speaking Tamil. Having one or 2 words from sanskrit is also like that.
    All are the result of invasions,mixing of cultures.. Tamil is entirely different language and for each word of sanskrit which got mixed in between there is equivalent tamil word.

    I proud to be a Tamilian and Indian...

  7. #47

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    My intention over this topic is not for proving Tamil's richness. There is no point to be proved for this. Since we are all happen to be in India we should not be harvesting hatred.
    But to force down the throats of others and wrong facts could not be tolerated. Thats why there was anti-hindi movement in 1960's. Since we are in democracy we should follow our own ways.
    Also the facts should be correct. Raising concern against wrong facts does not make oneself rascist. So put this topic at this point....

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by venky1974
    The following is from one of the Chapters on Hindu Dharma by
    MahaPeriyaval Shri ShriChandrasekharendra Sarasvati Swami. This extract is from

    http://www.kamakoti.org.

    It is not my purpose to claim that Sanskrit is superior to Tamil. When do feelings of superiority arise to make us happy? When we are conscious of differences between what we believe is "ours" and what we believe is "theirs". Where we to have racial bias, we could be tempted to speak in appreciative terms of what is "ours" and to deprecate what is "theirs". If we realise that to harbour feelings based on racial differences is itself wrong, that our languages have sprung from the same family, from the same cultural tradition, there will be no cause for speaking highly of one language at the expense of another.

    I read this and I thought that I would share it with you all.

    If you want to read more here is the link

    http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part7/chap4.htm

    Venky[/url]
    With all due respect, neither the author nor the the links are linguists - nor have any credentials on history. Its upto people to believe in the spiritual content of peoples teachings - but when it comes to history, science and linguistics, please trust the sources that have credentials on these particular aspects. We don't learn Tamil literature from these webpages (or calculus for that matter) why then do we have to learn about history of Tamil language from here? Also, when I say, I am a Tamil, I don't claim to be superior or inferior or anything else. I am just saying what is my language. Same thing holds for my birthday, religion, country, age, sex, and a whole lot of other things.

    I repeat, being Tamil is an entirely different issue to being Indian (or belonging to any religion or race or what kind of food (movie, sleep, exercise or any other stuff) you prefer... It is a language and thats what I speak! I also use words like internet, web, ice-cream and don't think I am speaking a different language. The reason Sanskrit (possibly) does not have words from other languages, is because no one speaks it for common purposes anymore. Much like Latin. Or ancient Greek or Hebrew.

    Vasan
    Short Measures
    It is a wretched taste to be gratified with mediocrity when the excellent lies before us - Isaac Disraeli

  9. #49
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    Nattukku ethu nallathu pakuratha vittutu mudinchu ponna history yee thusi thati thuruvi enna aga pohuthu...

    See today we have tanglish in geetham, ippo thamizh englishle varalaiya.. illa english than tamizh aa othukalaiya...

    1. See the ultimate aim of language is communication.

    2. When you adopt a global language to the nation, you are not gonna lose anything.

    3. Patriotism is different from language.

    4. Whether Dravidian lost to aryan or aryans lost to dravidian, remember they are history and it can be written any form also.

    5. See I told you before, once upon a time we were good in history, what about now?

  10. #50
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    But to force down the throats of others and wrong facts could not be tolerated. Thats why there was anti-hindi movement in 1960's.
    As long as the Anti Hindi Movement was to the purpose of pointing out your opinion it was good. There was a lot of other things that happend too. I was not born in 1960's to see this but I am refering to one such instance of my inlaw's house.

    The name of my inlaw's house was in sanskrit in Chennai. When this movement happend some of these called Anti Hindi Movement activits thought this sanskrit to be hindi and torched the house.

    I am not saying that we were at the receiving end I am sure the Pro Hindi Activits would also have done such things.

    I think the topic needs to discuss more on why there is a hatred. If there is one how can it be resolved.

    I appologise if I have deviated from the topic.

    Venky

  11. #51
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    Venky you said that Tamil has words from Sanskrit and so you follow the (faulty) logic that Tamil derived from Sanskrit. Remember that Tamil has some words from Sanskrit not because we were short of words etc. but because of influence from North Indians, Brahmins etc. Fro example, some one might say "Neengal sonnatharku enna artham" which is acceptable Tamil but in pure Tamil you can always say "Neengal sonnatharku enna porul". Its just that some Tamil words became archaic or purely literary over passage of time. That doesn't mean Tamil derived from some other language. It is definitely an insult unto the language to even hint that it is derived from another language. In fact, I would say Tamil is superior to Sanskrit in many aspects (even though I know you have not said Sanskrit is superior). Tamil is probably the only language which has changed little in its grammar or vocabulary. Consider a language like Sanskrit. It had several versions over the millennia which were completely unintelligible from one another. Agreed, a person well versed in Sanskrit could probably understand them all but a common man speaking in Sanskrit in the 15th century AD (just an example, for Sanskrit was more of a liturgical language and was never spoken a lingua franca; only languages derived from it like Prakrit were spoken) would definitely not understand Sanskrit spoken in 12th century AD. Whereas, the Tamil used by Thiruvalluvar 2000 years back is quite similar to the one we speak and quite understandable. In fact I would say, Sanskrit too has some words from Tamil like say phalam for fruit which is derived from pazham in Tamil. So can I now say Sanskrit is derived from Tamil?
    வாழிய செந்தமிழ்!

  12. #52
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    It is definitely an insult unto the language to even hint that it is derived from another language. In fact, I would say Tamil is superior to Sanskrit in many aspects (even though I know you have not said Sanskrit is superior).
    The question for insulting other languages is not at all here. we are merely discussing and opinions shared. Please do not take it in that sense. I am a Tamil and am proud of that fact. I am an Indian too and that is more to me than to be a Tamil. I am Indian First and then Tamil.

    As time progressed population have taken words from other languages to better suit themselves to communicate better. Some words from Sanskrit have migrated for use in Tamil and Some words from Tamil are also used for Sanskrit. The concept of Superior or inferior is not the question here.

    Main Track:

    Indians as such have to show respect for a national Language not because it was imposed by the government but for Patriotism. Be a proud Tamil , but also be proud of the Hindi Language. India is a free country and Indians are free to speak/ Choose and language of their choise. (This is my opinion)

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by venky1974
    It is definitely an insult unto the language to even hint that it is derived from another language. In fact, I would say Tamil is superior to Sanskrit in many aspects (even though I know you have not said Sanskrit is superior).

    The question for insulting other languages is not at all here. we are merely discussing and opinions shared. Please do not take it in that sense. I am a Tamil and am proud of that fact. I am an Indian too and that is more to me than to be a Tamil. I am Indian First and then Tamil.
    . (This is my opinion)
    Giving wrong fact is defenitely an insult.... Saying Tamil is subset of Sanskrit is world large lie and Its nothing but Insult....Also You say you are victim of that movement...In earlier days some people are treated as untouchables all because of brahmins..They will not allow others to get inside temple...They want other people to worship them...They say what they teach is education and dont let others to study...We all are victims of this...Also to say Ingu Tamillulun Archanai Seiyapadum in temples add salt to the wound... So I suggest to leave this topic here...

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by venky1974
    It is definitely an insult unto the language to even hint that it is derived from another language. In fact, I would say Tamil is superior to Sanskrit in many aspects (even though I know you have not said Sanskrit is superior).
    The question for insulting other languages is not at all here. we are merely discussing and opinions shared. Please do not take it in that sense. I am a Tamil and am proud of that fact. I am an Indian too and that is more to me than to be a Tamil. I am Indian First and then Tamil.

    As time progressed population have taken words from other languages to better suit themselves to communicate better. Some words from Sanskrit have migrated for use in Tamil and Some words from Tamil are also used for Sanskrit. The concept of Superior or inferior is not the question here.

    Main Track:

    Indians as such have to show respect for a national Language not because it was imposed by the government but for Patriotism. Be a proud Tamil , but also be proud of the Hindi Language. India is a free country and Indians are free to speak/ Choose and language of their choise. (This is my opinion)
    I am a Tamil and an Indian. I will not have to choose between the two. These should not be aginst each other. Like I said a while ago, we didn't earn hard-fought freedom to show respect to some language other than our own. What sort of freedom is that?

    Why should being a Tamil come before being an Indian? Why should being an Indian come before being a Tamil? It is my language and it is my country. Why should I not speak my own language in my own country? WHY IS PAYING RESPECT TO SOME LANGUAGE CONSIDERED PATRIOTISM AND STICKING TO ONES OWN LANGUAGE CONSIDERED INFERIOR OR AGAINST OUR COUNTRY? Why should I not be proud of all the various languages, dresses, rivers, food, religions, and people that actually make up my country? Why should I choose one, and respect it, as though the others don't matter? And why should that be considered PATRIOTISM? Why should ANYONE think that respecting MY OWN LANGUAGE in MY OWN COUNTRY is betrayal of my country? ISN'T THE ABSENCE OF PATRIOTISM BETRAYAL OF ONE'S OWN COUNTRY?

    My language, and my country. My religion. MY FREEDOM!!

    SUCH A FREEDOM IS MY BIRTHRIGHT...!!
    Short Measures
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  15. #55
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    Vasan,

    Agreed to your point fully. I had my opinion and thought. You have your opinion and thought.We are two different people with different thought.

    I don't consider any one inferior or superior. You are born free and you are free to choose what you feel. No one is thinking that respecting your language in your country is betrayal.

    My thought ( and only my thought) was that we need to respect Hindi as a national language, and other national languages.

    Cheers,

    Venky

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by venky1974
    Vasan,

    Agreed to your point fully. I had my opinion and thought. You have your opinion and thought.We are two different people with different thought.

    I don't consider any one inferior or superior. You are born free and you are free to choose what you feel. No one is thinking that respecting your language in your country is betrayal.

    My thought ( and only my thought) was that we need to respect Hindi as a national language, and other national languages.

    Cheers,

    Venky
    Sure thing, Venky...

    I am all for respecting ALL the languages in our country - even the little known ones. Promote inter-language transactions, translate each others works, and encourage dialogues among all the various languages and their contributions. All are separate languages with their own traditions and literature and wealth of knowledge - and NO language is superior or inferior to another.

    However, by choosing one particular language (any language) as national language and promoting that ALONE - for whatever the reason - is not good for a multilinguistic society like India. It is unfair, unrealistic, and unwanted. That is my opinion and thought.

    What I really do not like is calling every one who promotes his language as a separationist. I am not choosing my language or my country. I am born into it. I will not have to choose them or between them.
    Short Measures
    It is a wretched taste to be gratified with mediocrity when the excellent lies before us - Isaac Disraeli

  17. #57
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    Engae irunthu Tamil pakam ellarum poneenga...

    Vasan and venky, thats fully correct....

    Naan yaengoo discussed that english vaendaamnu.. eppo english out of picture aacha.. happy

    Shy

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    Sure thing, Venky...

    I am all for respecting ALL the languages in our country - even the little known ones. Promote inter-language transactions, translate each others works, and encourage dialogues among all the various languages and their contributions. All are separate languages with their own traditions and literature and wealth of knowledge - and NO language is superior or inferior to another.

    However, by choosing one particular language (any language) as national language and promoting that ALONE - for whatever the reason - is not good for a multilinguistic society like India. It is unfair, unrealistic, and unwanted. That is my opinion and thought.

    What I really do not like is calling every one who promotes his language as a separationist. I am not choosing my language or my country. I am born into it. I will not have to choose them or between them.
    Vasan, we are multilinguistic society ellaiyaa.. the Central government needs something in common to operate.

    80% of indians speak hindi. remaining dont know hindi at all, like us vachupoom.. What can we do.

    Majority spoken language is taken and I dont see that as illegal and wrong. Marathi, bengali paesuravanga, hindi romba easy'a will understand, because their languages are derived from hindi. but people like us find it hard, we have to adjust to that.. thats all.

    State Government'la Tamil ellama hindi iruntha athu thappu..

    I think what they have so far is correct. This is the only fair thing that can be done for a country like India.

    Shy

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shy

    Vasan, we are multilinguistic society ellaiyaa.. the Central government needs something in common to operate.
    80% of indians speak hindi. remaining dont know hindi at all, like us vachupoom.. What can we do.
    Majority spoken language is taken and I dont see that as illegal and wrong. Marathi, bengali paesuravanga, hindi romba easy'a will understand, because their languages are derived from hindi. but people like us find it hard, we have to adjust to that.. thats all.
    State Government'la Tamil ellama hindi iruntha athu thappu..
    I think what they have so far is correct. This is the only fair thing that can be done for a country like India.

    Shy
    Shy,

    I note two points in your comments. First, promotion of Hindi is for a practical purpose of governign our country. It is nothing to do with patriotism.

    On those two points, yes it is nothing to do with patriotism to learn Hindi. I can be tamil and not learn hindi (or kannada or urdu or any other language) and be patriotic.

    On the practical aspect of governing a country, why should it have to be any language from our own country? NOTE: What we need is a practical solution. What ever we choose here does not reflect our patriotism but a compromise that will keep things smooth on several levels. It is not only impractical and but also unnecessary for higher education to be done in any Indian Language. There is simply no practical way to translate all the Mechanical Engineering (my field) Research into all the indian languages. It is not a PRACTICAL solution.

    Since the language we use to govern the country is nothing to do with PARTIOTISM, it need not be any Indian language at all... it can be any language that is useful, easy to learn, and serves all the purposes conveniently. I think English is one such a language. I am not promoting English, but going to use to to suit my needs.

    My heart and soul and emotions are best expressed in my own Language. The Goverment should promote vigourously all the indian languages, its growth, and literature and everythign else. For administrative and other purposes it can be any language - and I think English is just about as good a choice as any thing else.
    Short Measures
    It is a wretched taste to be gratified with mediocrity when the excellent lies before us - Isaac Disraeli

  20. #60
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    Vasan.. Patriotism will not get itself involved as long as we have any of our Indian language as our national language.

    18 languages vachutu.. u want some foreign language to be ur national language.. doesnt that seem to be bit absurd, just for the sake of fright that we ourselves will clash whose language is best???? thats not a healthy solution.

    Shy

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